Confederate Flag

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by habernac

yeah, I don't buy the "he's a fan of the Dukes of Hazzard" bit either. I thought the Confederate flag was really cool once, too. When I was about 13. Then I figured out what it stood for.

I understand what your saying here habby...but honestly, what it "stands for" is not the same across the board.

As stated, there is no doubt some use it as a symbol of hate/supremacy. Most do not, but as a symbol of their heritage and one that which was a time in history they never want to forget. That whole era was a very hard time for this part of NA.

There is still a lot of people who, including blacks, that view the rebel flag as not one of hate or defeat, but one of pride and conviction.

Symbolism exists everywhere and in a plethora of ways. This is just another one.

All this being said, I would never fly one either, simply because of the possibility that it may offend someone i care about. However, the freedom of expression is first and foremost in this argument IMO, so those that do choose to sport said flag should be allowed to do so without being labelled anything negative, unless they prove themselves otherwise. Then they should be persecuted as anyone who promotes hate should.

[Cactus Jack]

Originally Posted by MJM

I love how every other race on the planet can have signs, flags, etc. to be proud of their race, but when a white person does it, it's racist, their a hillbilly, etc.

I don't have a racist inch to my body but I find it down right revolting how white people are almost forced into being shamed if they are proud of their race.

You do remember the South wanted to keep slaves, right?

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The blacks are not being held back by lingering racism as much as they are being held back by their own culture. Broken homes,booze,drugs,domestic violence, and the mentality that they are owed something by society has caused them to be left in a cycle of failed generations. Just compare them to the Hispanics. Hispanics are just as likely to experience racial profiling and discrimination as blacks and yet they are rapidly succeeding in all areas of American society. Before the Hispanics were the Italians and before the Italians were the Irish. All started out poor and on the outside looking in and all climbed that mountain and claimed their American dream. I realize the later three didn't start out as slaves but, neither did any black in American today.

My point is that black America isn't being given any favours by being treated like a spoiled baby who just skinned their knee. They need to pick themselves up, ignore the pain, and make their own way.

I see what your saying but what about natives in the US? Or better yet, Canada. Europeans took their land, brought diseases, mass murdered them and built nations and economies over their land with little consideration for them while putting them on small reserves. It's been hundreds of years and they are still alienated and poorly integrated into society. Sure, when you see one committ a crime, harass people on transit or make asses of themselves while wasted they don't do themselves any favours but neither have the majority. All parties are to blame.

[Knalus]

I'd have to say my vote is for Dukes of Hazzard.

Growing up in Canada, I didn't get alot of history about the Civil War much, even though I'm very strong in History and Geography. I never really gave the Civil War much thought, even though I was quite interested in many other aspects of history. Growing up, I ONLY ever knew of the confederate flag from Dukes of Hazzard, and from pictures of the south. It wasn't until I was in my mid 20's that I finally heard about the fact that blacks thought it was racist during the whole South Carolina capitol debate, which I only knew about because I watched CNN alot. A fair number of people i know never watch CNN, so I can believe that they might be clueless about the fact that it is considered by many to be racist, especially considering that most of those people live so far away. Yes, a number of these flags are flown by "rednecks", who view it as a redneck symbol (it is the "Rebel" flag), and a number of those rednecks might also be racist, but I'd be betting that most of those people (in Canada especially) would be in the dark when it comes to linking racism and the stars and bars. The General Lee wasn't a symbol of oppression to them, and they are so far from the south and the issue they don't know, or even really care much about.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Cactus Jack

I see what your saying but what about natives in the US? Or better yet, Canada. Europeans took their land, brought diseases, mass murdered them and built nations and economies over their land with little consideration for them while putting them on small reserves. It's been hundreds of years and they are still alienated and poorly integrated into society. Sure, when you see one committ a crime, harass people on transit or make asses of themselves while wasted they don't do themselves any favours but neither have the majority. All parties are to blame.

Just as a personal anecdote, when I went to San Fran a few years back, I was in a restaurant, and I noticed something really interesting. There was a table of Natives in the restaurant, and a table of Blacks, and the rest were something else, but mostly white. I noticed that the Natives acted comfortable, and like everyone else, while the black table didn't seem like they were comfortable with where they were. I noticed this a few other times in the city. It struck me as odd because the natives had a completely different attitude about them - they seemed completely integrated. Not like here.

I know this was just one anecdote, but it got me thinking their situation has a lot to do with exactly that - their situation. I don't know the whole situation, but there seems to be something similar in the situation of the Natives here (Alberta, Sask, and Manitoba), and the Blacks down there (California). The fact that these two groups seemed to have opposite attitudes suggest that it is the situation they are in - be it their own subculture's or lack of it, or how the rest of society views them, I don't know. The fact that it is opposite suggests it's not genetics, but a cultural thing, whatever that is.


Note my comparison is to two very narrow areas, there are likely parts of Canada and the States where the situations are very different in many respects.

[666DanceParty]

The Atlanta Flames - Named after the famous fire of Atlanta started by General William Tecumseh Sherman in 1864 destroying the key southern city of Atlanta, which was considered the beginning of the end of the Civil War.

Maybe the Alberta folk who wave the flag are just die hard Flames fans??

I personally doubt it but it is a fun little fact that sort of pertains to the topic.

[FurnaceFace]

The whole thought of racism is an interesting one. Reading this thread I was thinking back to my recent trip to Africa and realized I experienced racism. As white crackers we sort of stood out and as a result prices were higher for us then for a local. Even the owner of our Safari company said the same thing. He speaks Swahili, has lived there from 15 years, knows the people, but he still gets charged a higher price then if his Tanzanian wife goes and buys the supplies. This is white man = money. It never really bothered me as I was expecting it, but it's interesting to think about in light of this conversation.

And back on topic, my first reaction when I see that flag is "redneck". I don't immediately think "klan member" but I admit part of my redneck pie chart does have a slice with a label with racist connotations.

I think it's important to realize as humans we all have our biases, and they are not always accurate. It's what we do though, we compartmentalise as it makes things easy. You can be told "this is a bad area of town, you better watch yourself" and look suspect at every guy you pass whereas you'd pass the same dude in another area of the city without thinking about it. It's really facinating to see how our minds work and also very interesting to see how a group of 4 year olds interact. They don't have any preconceived notions.

[North East Goon]

I am on the lookout for a Trailer Hitch nut sack painted in the Confederate flag colours!

[Fozzie_DeBear]

[North East Goon]

If you change the orange to red, you are now just a cool a$$ mofo who loves supporting Evil Knievel!

[Fozzie_DeBear]

There was a company called NuSouth that took the Confererate Flag and redid it in an African motif....

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

The whole thought of racism is an interesting one. Reading this thread I was thinking back to my recent trip to Africa and realized I experienced racism. As white crackers we sort of stood out and as a result prices were higher for us then for a local. Even the owner of our Safari company said the same thing. He speaks Swahili, has lived there from 15 years, knows the people, but he still gets charged a higher price then if his Tanzanian wife goes and buys the supplies. This is white man = money. It never really bothered me as I was expecting it, but it's interesting to think about in light of this conversation.

LOL it's called tourism. Tourists are charged higher prices everywhere. When you don't know how to speak the local language and are from a foreign country, locals will try to make money off of you. And you were surprised!?

[fatso]

Originally Posted by Knalus

I'd have to say my vote is for Dukes of Hazzard.

Growing up in Canada, I didn't get alot of history about the Civil War much, even though I'm very strong in History and Geography. I never really gave the Civil War much thought, even though I was quite interested in many other aspects of history. Growing up, I ONLY ever knew of the confederate flag from Dukes of Hazzard, and from pictures of the south. It wasn't until I was in my mid 20's that I finally heard about the fact that blacks thought it was racist during the whole South Carolina capitol debate, which I only knew about because I watched CNN alot. A fair number of people i know never watch CNN, so I can believe that they might be clueless about the fact that it is considered by many to be racist, especially considering that most of those people live so far away. Yes, a number of these flags are flown by "rednecks", who view it as a redneck symbol (it is the "Rebel" flag), and a number of those rednecks might also be racist, but I'd be betting that most of those people (in Canada especially) would be in the dark when it comes to linking racism and the stars and bars. The General Lee wasn't a symbol of oppression to them, and they are so far from the south and the issue they don't know, or even really care much about.

So your argument is that most Albertans who invoke the Confederate flag likely aren't racist or history buffs, but just stupid?

I agree with that proposition. However, I'd further argue that if you're stupid enough to just throw up a foreign flag on your car without bothering to learn the history and various cultural meanings of that flag, chances are... you might be a redneck!

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

LOL it's called tourism. Tourists are charged higher prices everywhere. When you don't know how to speak the local language and are from a foreign country, locals will try to make money off of you. And you were surprised!?

Or not, he clearly supplied an example of someone who lives there getting discriminated against. Resident = Not tourist.

You're right though, if I were him I wouldn't have been so surprised.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by fatso

So your argument is that most Albertans who invoke the Confederate flag likely aren't racist or history buffs, but just stupid?

I agree with that proposition. However, I'd further argue that if you're stupid enough to just throw up a foreign flag on your car without bothering to learn the history and various cultural meanings of that flag, chances are... you might be a redneck!

similar to how people display the above. I've asked a few people if they know anything about Che Guevara. I usually get the "uh, it just looks cool, man" response.

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Or not, he clearly supplied an example of someone who lives there getting discriminated against. Resident = Not tourist.

You're right though, if I were him I wouldn't have been so surprised.

Well obviously the guy who lived there was letting people take advantage of him. If you can speak the language and are familiar with the city and area, there is no way you should allow people to take advantage of you. When the locals saw that he was white, they probably thought he was a tourist. But once he speaks the language he shouldn't accept any tourist style behavior.

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra
LOL it's called tourism. Tourists are charged higher prices everywhere. When you don't know how to speak the local language and are from a foreign country, locals will try to make money off of you. And you were surprised!?

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

You're right though, if I were him I wouldn't have been so surprised.

And I wasn't surprised. The difference is in France, Dubai, Finland, Japan, etc I walked into a store and paid the advertised price the same as a local would. In contrast in Africa, one day we bought a coke and the guy told us 500 shilling and when we said "but that sign says 300" he came back with a "no no, this is the refridgerated price". We just paid the 500 because it wasn't worth arguing further as we were freaking hot and the difference was minor. The same thing doesn't happen here. Someone from Tanzania, or Brazil, or Hong Kong will pay the same 1.85 from Macs for a bottle of pop as you or I will.

This is the minor part of my comment though, as Cowboy points out the guy who lives there and employs a number of locals gets shafted on prices. he even said he sends his wife to the mechanics if one of the Landcruisers needs a repair because she'll get a better price. That I find interesting and when you think about it, is a form of racism.

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

Well obviously the guy who lived there was letting people take advantage of him. If you can speak the language and are familiar with the city and area, there is no way you should allow people to take advantage of you. When the locals saw that he was white, they probably thought he was a tourist. But once he speaks the language he shouldn't accept any tourist style behavior.

This is what I was trying to say. He's lived there for 15 years, they know the guy, they know he runs a business that brings in the tourist dollars. It's the way it works in Tanzania. he said it doesn't matter than he speaks fluent Swahili, or anything. he's white, he pays more than his African wife. That's just the way it is (dododo dododo dododo).

We're getting off the original topic though and she take this off line.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

This is the minor part of my comment though, as Cowboy points out the guy who lives there and employs a number of locals gets shafted on prices. he even said he sends his wife to the mechanics if one of the Landcruisers needs a repair because she'll get a better price. That I find interesting and when you think about it, is a form of racism.

It's discrimination, yes, but I don't think its based soley on race. It's discrimination towards foreigners (or those perceived to be so).

You think a black American who didn't speak the local language would pay less than you just because he's black? I doubt it.

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

I do not like this cartoon.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

And I wasn't surprised. The difference is in France, Dubai, Finland, Japan, etc I walked into a store and paid the advertised price the same as a local would. In contrast in Africa, one day we bought a coke and the guy told us 500 shilling and when we said "but that sign says 300" he came back with a "no no, this is the refridgerated price". We just paid the 500 because it wasn't worth arguing further as we were freaking hot and the difference was minor. The same thing doesn't happen here. Someone from Tanzania, or Brazil, or Hong Kong will pay the same 1.85 from Macs for a bottle of pop as you or I will.

I obviously don't know your whole story on this, but it's not uncommon for stores in North America to charge more for refrigerated drinks than those on the shelf, regardless of who's buying. I would expect that to be very common in a place where electricity is more of a luxury.

As for the other places where you paid the advertised price, that has more to do with the lack of a bartering economy than anything else. If you tried to pay less in a Helsinki department store they'd just stare at you, in Africa and elsewhere it's expected. I imagine if you knew how to barter effectively you'd pay the same price as anyone else, I've found that to be the case in Asia.