How many people here believe in God, Heaven and angels, Hell and Satan and his demons

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

The "possibility" needs to be justified in some way. Like the Gravity discussion.

Why?

Explain away the large holes in evolution or the big bang theory or whatever else 'science' tells us to believe... regardless of evidence for or against. I'm not saying I don't believe in evolution, but there are HUGE holes in the theory that no one seems to be able to fill. Isn't it just lovely that we all came from gunk? And isn't it fantastic how each species fills a niche perfectly?

So you tell me there is no God as there is no evidence of a God, and I tell you that there is too much that science will NEVER be able to explain. "We're working on it" holds about as much weight as "You'll just have to trust us," don't you think?

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by driveway

Correct me if I misunderstand, but wouldn't the Grand Unification Theory, should it ever be elucidated, be the "why" answer that science may actually be able to provide?

Granted it would also be the ultimate "how", but an equation, or series thereof, which was able to encompass all phenomenon (not just all known, but ALL) would be the final answer to the question of why.

Eg:
Why has life evolved on this planet? Because x= blah blah blah divided by Jarome Iginla + awesome, etc.

(I can only assume that Jarome Iginla will be the denomenator in the Grand Unification Theory)

The way you phrase it is just another form of how. You could as easily say 'how has life evolved on the planet' and get the same answer.

I think that when most people talk about the 'why' answers, they're talking about purpose: is there a purpose to evolution, and if so, what? This is the why that science can't answer and isn't interested in answering.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Every single person in this thread and around the world were born......atheist!
Parents, Grandparents, family and outside influences taught them to be "religion of choice".
If CalgaryPuckers were born in Afghanistan or Iran most of you would be Muslim, if born in Greece or Italy you'd be Catholic, Salt Lake City...Mormon.

Fortunately, as parents and children are educated at higher levels, religion becomes insignificant due to the fact that they spend as much time learning about the history of religion as they do learning about their vocation. The information is out there now, nothing is hidden, and modern day churches are struggling with this fact. We see the Catholics flip flop regularly to try and keep up with the times.
These changes in Western society are creating more atheists, deists and agnostics, and Im sure if we walked into the "vast majority" of churches on any given Sunday we'd see empty pews where a mere 50 years ago they would have been filled.
We can see the opposite effect in the Muslim world where many women are uneducated and questioning their religion, or their men, is considered heresy. Shariah Law.

The idea that we would lose out on the "good that religion does" if it was eliminated is bunk. Its people who do good....not religion.

"It is said that men may not be the dreams of the Gods, but rather that the Gods are the dreams of men."
– Carl Sagan


850,000,000 people around the world are Atheist, Agnostic or Non-Religious. That's more than 1 out of 10 people, making up the 4th largest belief group.
Statistics have shown that the more educated an individual, the less likely they are to be religious or believe in a god. 72% of the National Academy of Sciences members have a 'personal disbelief in god' and another 20% claim 'doubt or agnosticism'.
Less than 1% of the US prison population is 'atheist' vs. about 10% in the general population.
The Divorce rate among atheists and agnostics is 21% vs. 30% for Jews, 27% for Born again Christians, and 24% for other Christians.

*insert standing ovation here*

[driveway]

Originally Posted by alltherage

Actually, mocking people for their beliefs breeds hate.

Does it? I imagine that it depends on a couple of things, namely the nature of the mocking and the confidence a person has in their faith. Any fair-minded person should be able to see humour in most things and recognize a certain amount of absurdity in themselves. Gentle, and even not-so-gentle mocking of those absurdities should - in a person who has confidence in what they believe - engender nothing but a genuine laugh at a quality joke and perhaps a rueful shake of the head at someone who hasn't discovered the "truth" yet.

If, however, a person is not confident in their faith, if they recognize the absurdities not as items of faith which must be accepted, but as major stumbling-blocks to belief then I could see how mocking those absurdities would result in protective anger as a defense mechanism.

Finally, as for the jpeg in question, that IS what christians believe, summed up rather succinctly and the only word that could be quibbled over is the word "Zombie" as there is no biblical evidence that Jesus hungered for brains upon his resurrection.

Do you openly mock children who believe in Santa Clause?

There is, and I'm sure you can see, a difference between young children who have been deliberately and knowingly mislead by their parents AND society as a whole, and grown adults who espouse an undeniably bizarre sequence of events as cosmically True.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I figured out what felt right in my heart. The point is that I don't believe or trust because someone 'told me to'.



Which is what you said.

Not being religious is about just as much trust or faith. You aren't concerned about your afterlife or don't believe in one, that's fine. Just as many people out there 'telling me' that there isn't a God. I would then have to believe or trust that because someone 'told me to', no? Goes both ways.

LOL...you are repeating what I said...I said " You then decided to choose and choose how you believe."

The faith based comment is silly. We've been down this road many times in the past LOL...Im not about to go back. Ill let my brethern comment on it if they choose.
Right now Im packing to head off to Cuba where I will contemplate the world while sitting under the hot sun, drink in hand, perhaps with a good Cuban cigar! Ill check back in an about a week or so to see if this still has legs.
Cheers all...great discussion as usual!

[driveway]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I'm not saying I don't believe in evolution, but there are HUGE holes in the theory that no one seems to be able to fill. Isn't it just lovely that we all came from gunk? And isn't it fantastic how each species fills a niche perfectly?

This threatens to derail this thread entirely, so I'll be very brief. There are not actually "Huge holes" in evolutionary theory. This is something that is promulgated by opponents to the theory but is not actually true. If you want to enter into a lengthy discussion of the "holes" and why they are not actually holes, I would be happy to do so, but I suggest we start another thread to deal with it.

Whether or not we came from gunk has nothing to do with evolution, but is the theory of Abiogenesis. Opponents of the TOE like to lump the two together, but they do not follow necessarily one from the other.

Here is a very good resource for answering questions about the TOE and also for demonstrating why supposed 'holes' in the theory have either already been 'closed' or are not actually holes.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

And now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

[alltherage]

Originally Posted by driveway

Does it? I imagine that it depends on a couple of things, namely the nature of the mocking and the confidence a person has in their faith. Any fair-minded person should be able to see humour in most things and recognize a certain amount of absurdity in themselves. Gentle, and even not-so-gentle mocking of those absurdities should - in a person who has confidence in what they believe - engender nothing but a genuine laugh at a quality joke and perhaps a rueful shake of the head at someone who hasn't discovered the "truth" yet.

If, however, a person is not confident in their faith, if they recognize the absurdities not as items of faith which must be accepted, but as major stumbling-blocks to belief then I could see how mocking those absurdities would result in protective anger as a defense mechanism.

Finally, as for the jpeg in question, that IS what christians believe, summed up rather succinctly and the only word that could be quibbled over is the word "Zombie" as there is no biblical evidence that Jesus hungered for brains upon his resurrection.



There is, and I'm sure you can see, a difference between young children who have been deliberately and knowingly mislead by their parents AND society as a whole, and grown adults who espouse an undeniably bizarre sequence of events as cosmically True.

OK so by your logic if you are confident in your sexuality, you don't mind being called a f*ggot. If you are confident in being chinese you don't mind being called a chink. If you are a woman you don't mind when someone says "get back in the kitchen".

That's air tight, my friend. Air tight.

People can be as confident as hell, but don't appreciate being made fun of... is that their fault? I don't think so.

I'm not even saying I was offended, either. I was born and raised Catholic, but I can take a step back and laugh... however I don't think the mob mentality of "7 out of 10 people laughed" justifies that it's OK to drop a bomb like that in the middle of an otherwise healthy debate.

[photon]

Originally Posted by driveway

Correct me if I misunderstand, but wouldn't the Grand Unification Theory, should it ever be elucidated, be the "why" answer that science may actually be able to provide?

Granted it would also be the ultimate "how", but an equation, or series thereof, which was able to encompass all phenomenon (not just all known, but ALL) would be the final answer to the question of why.

It might describe everything about our universe, or even the initial state of the universe and how that initial state came about, but will it be able to answer why that specific theory describes everything and not some other theory? i.e. why did things happen the way they did and not some other way? I suspect that no matter what theories and models we come up with, there will always be a why that points one level up.

[Thor]

Or more likely, 'one level down' as in what lies in understanding Quantum mechanics in the future.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by alltherage

OK so by your logic if you are confident in your sexuality, you don't mind being called a f*ggot. If you are confident in being chinese you don't mind being called a chink. If you are a woman you don't mind when someone says "get back in the kitchen".

That's air tight, my friend. Air tight.

As I said in my post, whether or not mocking engenders hate depends both on the confidence of faith and the nature of the mocking. Personal attacks are different from attacks on the belief itself.

Saying that the story of Christ is ridiculous is different from saying that YOU are ridiculous for believing it.

At no point did I wish to imply that people should be made fun of, or made the butt of jokes for having a specific belief. However, ALL beliefs should be made fun of relentlessly. Those that are harder to make fun of are more likely to be true and to help humanity move forward as a group.

[alltherage]

Originally Posted by driveway

As I said in my post, whether or not mocking engenders hate depends both on the confidence of faith and the nature of the mocking. Personal attacks are different from attacks on the belief itself.

Saying that the story of Christ is ridiculous is different from saying that YOU are ridiculous for believing it.

At no point did I wish to imply that people should be made fun of, or made the butt of jokes for having a specific belief. However, ALL beliefs should be made fun of relentlessly. Those that are harder to make fun of are more likely to be true and to help humanity move forward as a group.

Honestly, I think what your point is, is that we should address the flaws in other people's beliefs if we want to progress as a whole. My point is that this doesn't have to be done with a malicious tone.

[photon]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I figured out what felt right in my heart. The point is that I don't believe or trust because someone 'told me to'.

What feels right in your heart though is a result of your life experiences, if you had been raised in a different area of the world, what felt right would be different. Which is why what religion a person is is determined primarily by where they are.

Originally Posted by FireFly

Explain away the large holes in evolution or the big bang theory or whatever else 'science' tells us to believe... regardless of evidence for or against. I'm not saying I don't believe in evolution, but there are HUGE holes in the theory that no one seems to be able to fill. Isn't it just lovely that we all came from gunk? And isn't it fantastic how each species fills a niche perfectly?

Please don't take a lack of understanding of something and turn it into a shortcoming in that thing.

Originally Posted by FireFly

So you tell me there is no God as there is no evidence of a God, and I tell you that there is too much that science will NEVER be able to explain. "We're working on it" holds about as much weight as "You'll just have to trust us," don't you think?

You say there is too much that science will never be able to explain.. never is a long time, that's a very bold claim, you should provide some support for that.

Where does science ever say "you'll just have to trust us"? If science doesn't know something it clearly says "I don't know". Are you uncomfortable with the answer "I don't know"?

Maybe that's a root cause of religion in some, the inability to deal with "I don't know" as an answer?

[driveway]

Originally Posted by alltherage

Honestly, I think what your point is, is that we should address the flaws in other people's beliefs if we want to progress as a whole. My point is that this doesn't have to be done with a malicious tone.

This will drop us into a semantic argument, but I don't see humour as necessarily malicious.

[Thor]

As to the discussion on 'offense' since we're derailing a bit now.

Non believers typically have a thick skin, our non belief is often spoken of in ways that would if reversed infuriate and deeply offend religious believers.

Having said that, since tough criticisms of Religion are becoming more vocal, these last 10 yrs especially theres going to be a lot of this no matter what, but I'm not suggesting we try to insult each other.

Religion has had a blanket of protection for 2000 yrs, where critcism of it was responded with prison, death, or torture. So obviously there will be problems in these discussions of people taking offense.

But when you are dealing with deeply personal held beliefs its an fact of the debate and we should do our best not to let them derail the whole interesting discussion because of it.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Meh. I could show this to many, many people who have some sort of Christian faith and they'd find it funny if they hadn't already seen it. Anyone with a solid faith will not be shaken by that whatsoever. It's funny to think what Christianity would be viewed as by outsider.

Well, it doesn't shake one's faith in God. One's faith in humanity, however...

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by alltherage

Actually, I don't agree that that's a little edge. That's downright offensive to Christians.

Tough. That would be the same Christians that imposed their beliefs on millions over generations.

If you want to run around imposing your beliefs on others then be prepared for the ridicule that follows.

Originally Posted by Knalus

Well, it doesn't shake one's faith in God. One's faith in humanity, however...

Or one's faith in a sense of humour.

Like .. .why didn't Jesus play hockey?
Because he kept getting nailed to the boards.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by driveway

This threatens to derail this thread entirely, so I'll be very brief. There are not actually "Huge holes" in evolutionary theory. This is something that is promulgated by opponents to the theory but is not actually true. If you want to enter into a lengthy discussion of the "holes" and why they are not actually holes, I would be happy to do so, but I suggest we start another thread to deal with it.

Whether or not we came from gunk has nothing to do with evolution, but is the theory of Abiogenesis. Opponents of the TOE like to lump the two together, but they do not follow necessarily one from the other.

Here is a very good resource for answering questions about the TOE and also for demonstrating why supposed 'holes' in the theory have either already been 'closed' or are not actually holes.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

And now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

I agree. For too long the discussion we were having (before people started "joking" around in that oh-so-funny-way) has been about science and religion. It's a different discussion, one which I wouldn't mind at a different time, but let's leave that out of it.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Or one's faith in a sense of humour.

Like .. .why didn't Jesus play hockey?
Because he kept getting nailed to the boards.

OK - I just have to say - that's freakin hilarious. Humor and insult are close bedfellows, but not all humor is insulting. What is insulting is thinking that humor has to be.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by Knalus

Well, it doesn't shake one's faith in God. One's faith in humanity, however...

Humanity? It's a relatively humorous and silly pic.

Discussions like this are best with a couple beers, some humor, and some feeling. Not this reasonable aura you are trying so hard to affect.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Knalus

(before people started "joking" around in that oh-so-funny-way)

Dude, if you're having issues this serious with that one jpeg I would recommend you avoid most of the religion threads that show up on CP 'cause you're going to end up either enraged or in tears. Just a 'heads up' for the future.

That was a really, really gentle jibe both by CP's standards and standards in general.