How many people here believe in God, Heaven and angels, Hell and Satan and his demons

[photon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

This has always baffled me. Prayers heal sometimes. Who takes the blame when the prayers don't work and the person isn't healed?

I was taught that it was a matter of faith and belief. That the reason a person would not receive healing is because the people praying did not have sufficient faith (faith is a muscle that has to be exercised they would say). They said that the person could also not be accepting their healing either through disbelief or sin in their life. If the healing didn't manifest, they were told to live as if the healing had already manifested (i.e. stop taking medicine, walk without the cane, etc).

Most people would only go so far with this, eventually accepting actual medical help, then feeling guilty and ostracized because they showed they didn't trust God. Nice eh?

The sad part of this is one of the pastors of a church I went to when I was young. He was a very intelligent man, had many excellent qualities and I looked up to him and respected him a lot.

Not many years ago I found out he died of cancer... apparently he had developed it but hadn't told anyone, not even his family, and had refused treatment because he thought that that would have shown a lack of faith in God.. so when he eventually got very ill then died it was a shock to everyone.

Originally Posted by Knalus

I honestly don't think this makes any sense. It's confusing, comes off quite smug, hairsplitting about definitions, and in the end, almost certainly wrong.
I think they don't like it because it's confrontational.

Well of course I don't put it that way in a discussion. I don't think it's confrontational, or confusing, or hairsplitting, and it's not wrong. Definitions are important and useful.

Atheism is about belief. Agnosticism is about knowledge. When someone says they believe something based on faith, not based on knowledge, that's the same distinction they're drawing.

Originally Posted by Knalus

I used to think they were in the minority, too.

The internet cured me of that belief. Most people just don't want to get into an intense argument with someone face to face. Nothing starts an argument than things that make it clear you think you're smarter. But online, you can say anything and not have to worry too much.

They aren't in the minority. And they aren't usually that smart, either.

The big downside with a face to face argument or discussion is that it's too fluid.. people can say things and get away with it, while on a discussion in a forum you can't. I can make claims and in a face to face there's no time to go fact check, or no time to go back and see if that's actually what I said before, or if that's what you said before. Online, it's all written down. I think that makes for far more interesting and meaningful discussions.. I hate discussing religion face to face because I can't fact check, I can't do some research before my reply, I can't take some time to think about it. Face to face arguments are basically informal debates, and debates are useless. Worse than useless, someone can be completely wrong in a debate but if they are a skilled debater they can "win" the debate.

EDIT: But I agree, saying "I'm smarter" is destructive to any discussion, face to face or Internet.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by photon

The big downside with a face to face argument or discussion is that it's too fluid.. people can say things and get away with it, while on a discussion in a forum you can't. I can make claims and in a face to face there's no time to go fact check, or no time to go back and see if that's actually what I said before, or if that's what you said before. Online, it's all written down. I think that makes for far more interesting and meaningful discussions.. I hate discussing religion face to face because I can't fact check, I can't do some research before my reply, I can't take some time to think about it. Face to face arguments are basically informal debates, and debates are useless. Worse than useless, someone can be completely wrong in a debate but if they are a skilled debater they can "win" the debate.

EDIT: But I agree, saying "I'm smarter" is destructive to any discussion, face to face or Internet.

Good point, I agree often by correspondence people have better, more thorough, and often more stimulating conversations. The only problem is that people are touchy about certain subjects, and insult can often occur - mostly with people who aren't commonly posting.

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I disagree with that. I grew up in a small town in Ontario (Belleville to be exact) and my family went to church every Sunday. When they passed the basket around I never saw anyone else keeping tabs on how much the next person was contributing. Maybe you felt that in your church but I think you are the exception.

Originally Posted by Knalus

Perhaps you were in the wrong church? Not all churches are the same. Another subtlety often lost on people.

Maybe, but I have also attended other Catholic churches during that time period and didn't see much difference in any of them.
No matter, it is my opinion and mine only. If someone is comfortable in being in that church, who am I to say otherwise.
My point being I believe that people are quite aware of what others contribute to the cause.

[calgaryrocks]

Originally Posted by Thor

I think since this discussion is getting more enjoyable as we go along, I would humbly suggest we remember that although we cannot disprove God, we can however do things like use reason/logic to understand age of the earth, the fossil record, evolution, and our vast understanding of the cosmos. Not to mention understanding who wrote the testaments, flaws, contradictions of religious documents that we know clearly today.

I mean there are people who think the earth is 6000yrs old, we know this to be untrue, faith over reason. Same goes for the overwhelming evidence from the fossil record, and of course that we evolved from simple life to the diversity we see today.

I personally am curious with those who believe in God, do you believe someone created that God? Do you believe there are other Gods that exist along side the one you believe in?

Thanks in advance.

I agree, we aren't discussion creationism vs evolution (both sides can be partially right anyways, but i digress)

anyways I believe that we don't understand time from God's point of view. think about this, we try to understand God from a small point of view, imagine for a second there is a God, would he/she really be a God if we could understand things the same as them? Would they be any more intelligent? How could they create such a complex creature? Anyways I don’t think we understand time, we see it as point to point, God probably has an overlooking view of things, doesn’t look at things in terms of our ‘time’. What happens in 1900 he can look at the same time as what happens in 2900, if that makes sense. So I think in terms of our time, what I believe is that he has always been there. He is God, how can something create God? Something had to have happened for him to be there or maybe he was always there.

Either way we have no idea of knowing how it started, science will never be able to explain fully how the stuff came into existence that created the big bang, and us Christians (or people who believe in God in general) will never be able to explain how God came into existence.

There are some things we just aren’t meant to know, because well, they just aren’t that important. If you or me know everything there is to know, including God and how time works, then what is left? Everyone knows everything and we become isolated as we decide we know everything so whats the point of even asking anyone anything, as we know and they know.

Anyways, I think it comes down to our understanding, if that makes sense.
Oh and for there being other Gods?

No, I believe there is one God, people from other Religions (Muslims for example) also believe in God, but as I mentioned earlier they believe different things about him as there is to much to God we can’t begin to imagine. Its like trying to put a backpack inside itself…

In other faiths (I am a Christian) they believe in Gods or beings etc, some parts of other faiths are based on what God would want, on loving God etc. there are probably parts of every religion that have things a little off, as there is interpertation and human error. But I believe there is one God.

And then there’s Satan, who I think tried to take over from God, as an angel of some sort (I am not sure what to think of angels etc but I think they exist, not as former people though…again I don’t know) and he got kicked out.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Knalus

Good point, I agree often by correspondence people have better, more thorough, and often more stimulating conversations. The only problem is that people are touchy about certain subjects, and insult can often occur - mostly with people who aren't commonly posting.

Sure, that's the big downside of internet discussions.. all the small social cues, facial expressions, vocalizations, posture, eye movements, etc are absent. So something I say in person that is intended to be pointed but not intended to hurt is recognizable, while doing that in text without offending is far more difficult.

[troutman]

About 2/3 of respondents to this poll are atheists or pantheists.

Is this surprising on a forum of mainly young males?

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by photon

Well of course I don't put it that way in a discussion. I don't think it's confrontational, or confusing, or hairsplitting, and it's not wrong. Definitions are important and useful.

Atheism is about belief. Agnosticism is about knowledge. When someone says they believe something based on faith, not based on knowledge, that's the same distinction they're drawing.

Agnostics believe you cannot know. Theists believe you can "know" without proof (a claim scientists find hard to fathom). Someone who claims you can't prove, don't necessarily mean you can't know.


And it's almost always confrontational to label someone and then tell them of the label you chose. The fact they don't like it suggests it is confrontational.

[calgaryrocks]

Originally Posted by Sample00

Maybe, but I have also attended other Catholic churches during that time period and didn't see much difference in any of them.
No matter, it is my opinion and mine only. If someone is comfortable in being in that church, who am I to say otherwise.
My point being I believe that people are quite aware of what others contribute to the cause.

thats fair, and i wouldnt be comftorble in that type of church either. giving is a personal choice, if you are guilted into it, then you aren't doing it out of obedience and love for God
its true that some people make more effort to be aware of others giving, possibly because they think they are superior or because they want to do what someone else is doing.
maybe you should try some non-catholic churches

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Sample00

Maybe, but I have also attended other Catholic churches during that time period and didn't see much difference in any of them.
No matter, it is my opinion and mine only. If someone is comfortable in being in that church, who am I to say otherwise.
My point being I believe that people are quite aware of what others contribute to the cause.

Once again - perhaps you are in the wrong church?
But yeah, there are those types of people in Protestant Churches, (as well as in work, too).

[photon]

Originally Posted by Knalus

Agnostics believe you cannot know.

Depends, weak agnostic (it is currently unknown) or strong agnostic. (the very idea is unknowable)

Originally Posted by Knalus

Theists believe you can "know" without proof (a claim scientists find hard to fathom). Someone who claims you can't prove, don't necessarily mean you can't know.

Like I said before, this gets into the definition of knowledge and belief.. someone can claim to know without proof, but I would then ask what the difference between knowing and believing is. Is knowing just a stronger conviction of belief? One knows because they feel a deep conviction? That's still belief. This is where definitions become important.

One difference between knowledge and belief is knowledge is something that can be shared among people and be the same. We can discuss our beliefs forever and may never still really understand each other.. Knowledge can be shared and you can be certain my knowledge is the same as yours (because you can add 2+2 and get the same 4 I do, or combine the same chemicals and get the same result).

Originally Posted by Knalus

And it's almost always confrontational to label someone and then tell them of the label you chose. The fact they don't like it suggests it is confrontational.

Well usually the whole progression goes opposite to the way we've gone about it.. definitions of words like belief, knowledge, agnostic, faith, etc.. then at some point the question would be "well by these definitions wouldn't you then be an agnostic theist"? The intent being to show that maybe there isn't as much a difference as the other person thinks.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by photon

Well usually the whole progression goes opposite to the way we've gone about it.. definitions of words like belief, knowledge, agnostic, faith, etc.. then at some point the question would be "well by these definitions wouldn't you then be an agnostic theist"? The intent being to show that maybe there isn't as much a difference as the other person thinks.

That's definitely an interesting way to take the conversation. It would definitely take skill to make it go in that direction, tho. I'm reminded of that scene in Tommy Boy, where the father makes a joke about shoving your head up a cows ass, and Chris Farley just can't pull that joke off himself.

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by Knalus

Once again - perhaps you are in the wrong church?
But yeah, there are those types of people in Protestant Churches, (as well as in work, too).

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

thats fair, and i wouldnt be comftorble in that type of church either. giving is a personal choice, if you are guilted into it, then you aren't doing it out of obedience and love for God
its true that some people make more effort to be aware of others giving, possibly because they think they are superior or because they want to do what someone else is doing.
maybe you should try some non-catholic churches

oh I have no intention of going to any church what so ever.
I have grown and grown up and my beliefs are firmly entrenched in that of agnostic.
I attended that particular church in Calgary because a) My parents are Catholic and b) I had a thing for the young lady that played the organ.
It wasn't cause I was a believer.
But anyways, I digress. Thank you for sharing your opinion. Its what makes this forum interesting.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Knalus

There are many situations where it is getting more and more uncomfortable to see the reactions that happen when you mention what you believe, whether or not that was a topic you brought up or not. In some situations, people become actively hostile to anyone that reveals their beliefs (at least the ones that they disagree with). While I understand that many Atheists and members of other religions have felt that same feeling, this is a situation that Christians are feeling more and more on an ongoing basis. Remember, those that are Religious believe they are in the minority, and those that are Atheists also believe they are in the minority as well.


To give an example of your question, in particular this is the case in school - both grade school, and especially university.

While I think it is terrible for people to be "actively hostile" towards you when you tell them what you believe (assuming those beliefs would be considered regular Christianity), it seems to me that your beef is that people don't believe the same things you do, and they say so.

It's not "life becoming more difficult", it's "life".

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Russic

As long as people continue to use Internet Explorer 6, Arrested Develop remains cancelled and Cherry Coke is not stocked on Canadian shelves there is obviously no god.

fixed

[Coach]

i would say that i dont necessarily believe in "God" but I do believe in there being things that cannot be explained by science and I am ok with that. I also believe that people create their own resting places. Meaning not necessarily Heaven and Hell but that places that people's subcontious have created for themselves. So if you are a troubled mind/soul/whatever you might go to a place not so nice and vise versa. Also that reincarnation is the option of the soul.

[Cheese]

Every single person in this thread and around the world were born......atheist!
Parents, Grandparents, family and outside influences taught them to be "religion of choice".
If CalgaryPuckers were born in Afghanistan or Iran most of you would be Muslim, if born in Greece or Italy you'd be Catholic, Salt Lake City...Mormon.

Fortunately, as parents and children are educated at higher levels, religion becomes insignificant due to the fact that they spend as much time learning about the history of religion as they do learning about their vocation. The information is out there now, nothing is hidden, and modern day churches are struggling with this fact. We see the Catholics flip flop regularly to try and keep up with the times.
These changes in Western society are creating more atheists, deists and agnostics, and Im sure if we walked into the "vast majority" of churches on any given Sunday we'd see empty pews where a mere 50 years ago they would have been filled.
We can see the opposite effect in the Muslim world where many women are uneducated and questioning their religion, or their men, is considered heresy. Shariah Law.

The idea that we would lose out on the "good that religion does" if it was eliminated is bunk. Its people who do good....not religion.

"It is said that men may not be the dreams of the Gods, but rather that the Gods are the dreams of men."
– Carl Sagan


850,000,000 people around the world are Atheist, Agnostic or Non-Religious. That's more than 1 out of 10 people, making up the 4th largest belief group.
Statistics have shown that the more educated an individual, the less likely they are to be religious or believe in a god. 72% of the National Academy of Sciences members have a 'personal disbelief in god' and another 20% claim 'doubt or agnosticism'.
Less than 1% of the US prison population is 'atheist' vs. about 10% in the general population.
The Divorce rate among atheists and agnostics is 21% vs. 30% for Jews, 27% for Born again Christians, and 24% for other Christians.

[Azure]

Tough to answer some of those....considering that I might believe in something, but there are conditions that apply.

I may believe in God, but I have no problem with the belief, or non-belief of an atheist. And I have no problem with a different belief.

Each to his own.

Which is why I can't stand the judging, or the criticism. I know a lot of good religious people....and I know a lot of religious people who simply use their 'religion' as a means to have power over others.

But, I attest that more to religion simply being a tool that people can use in both good/bad ways.

Its not the 'religion' aspect that creates the problem. Its the idea of something being there that allows someone to exert control over someone else.

If religion didn't exist....something else would fill its place.

Trust me, I hate organized religion as much as the next person. I despite and loathe what people like Moody, Chick and a few others have done to Western Society. But, in the belief of a 'free country'....I try not to degrade people for believing in THAT version of Christianity.

Again, each to his own.

[HOZ]

I can't believe Goblins an stuff isn't doing better. Maybe it needed ghouls as well?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by HOZ

I can't believe Goblins an stuff isn't doing better. Maybe it needed ghouls as well?

Yes. And I also noticed that there was no witches and warlocks box to check off. Our Wicca followers are not going to be happy at all.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by HOZ

I can't believe Goblins an stuff isn't doing better. Maybe it needed ghouls as well?

I voted for Goblins. Just as feasible as the rest of the choices.

As a sort of Taoist (yeah, I know, doesn't really match with my actions, but hey, no one's perfect) I find a lot of this God argument pretty fun. I don't know anything, but do believe there are rights and wrongs. I don't think there's a giant in the sky judging me, a nirvana once I die, or sulfurous torment if I'm bad. I do have the ability to chose my path, as everyone does.

It's too bad even Taoism has to ruin itself with weird mystical crap, belief in Gods etc. At least there is a base thinking I can relate to.