Zeitgeist, 9/11, and Other Conspiracies

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Sowa

That's the thing is if you know there are holes in Alex Jones, Zeitgeist, and Loose Change and that they do blatant misrepresentations of facts why would consider the rest of their arguments. If you want to look at someone who at least uses good sources and information for his "conspiracy theories" read Noam Chomsky. It is a much better eye opener than any of this crap. Even then you have to understand that he doesn't know the whole story of the events he discusses, but he does point out a lot of terrible things the US gov't has done.

Thanks, I will check that out. I am fascinated by stuff like the Bilderberg Group and the history of American banking etc.

I have even read (non Alex Jones) stuff that said America knew that the Pearl Harbor attacks were coming, and they were warned by Australian officials but chose to ignore it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I read some of those links you posted Captain, and they can be debunked as well. That is a blogger, no different than you and me finding articles to support his/her stance.
He talked about how the follow up explosions that were heard by rescue workers were from the jet fuel. Well, the jet fuel was scattered 80 floors up while the workers were reporting explosions from the lobby and basement area...
.....but I guess the firefighters are foil hat wearing crazies too huh.

Bunk, at least these bloggers are using actualy accredited information sources to debunk Loose Change. If anything they're following the wishes and desires of the makers of that movie. Unlike the people that watch that movie and believe its a well researched and logical piece.

Go back to the whole engine thing at the Pentagon and read it carefully, read the followup questions to the Boeing employee in terms of the engine.

The secret of the conspiracy theory is to grab a single really lose witness or piece of information and pound the sh$t out of it until it fits into the theory.

The makers of the film actively state that they made the film with the intent to get people to do their own investigations and come to their own conclusions. Loose Change is basically a scripted piece of fiction filled with half truths, no truths and misdirection.

the problem with people that view loose change is that they don't take it that way, its considered the bible or gospel of 9/11 conspiracy theories where its intriging points which are suppossed to make people think are accepted as the truth when they are falsehoods and hoaxes meant to make the viewer go out and actively debunk the picture.

What I encourage people to do is go out and research it themselves. We don't ever come out and say that everything we say is 100 percent. We know there are errors in the documentary, and we've actually left them in there so that people discredit us and do the research for themselves -- the B52 (remarked to have flown into the Empire State Building), the use of Wikipedia, things like that. We left them in there so people will want to discredit us and go out and research the events yourself and come up with your own conclusions."
-- (ex) Army specialist Korey Rowe, veteran of Bush's wars on Afghanistan and Iraq, producer of Loose Change
quoted in The Loose Cannon of 9/11, by Michael Slenske, SMITH Magazine. Posted August 21, 2006. www.alternet.org/story/40476/
"Loose Change really is not a very fair representation of the 9-11 Truth Movement. I would recommend 9-11 Press for Truth, 9-11 Mysteries."
-- Dylan Avery, Director, Loose Change

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

i for one do not trust very much in this world; the government, the media, big pharma or the military-industrial complex. sure, some magazines and universities have published documents that 'prove' there was no inside job on 9/11. i believe my gut feeling over anything i read or watch, especially ones that try to sell me 100% certainty. i question everything.

I have a gut feeling the Flames won the Stanley Cup last Friday night. People have tried to tell me otherwise but I don't trust them. The media, other hockey fans, the engraver, they'll all try to tell me something different with 100% certainty, but I'm going to go with my gut feeling over anything I read or watch. I question everything.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I have a gut feeling the Flames won the Stanley Cup last Friday night. People have tried to tell me otherwise but I don't trust them. The media, other hockey fans, the engraver, they'll all try to tell me something different with 100% certainty, but I'm going to go with my gut feeling over anything I read or watch. I question everything.

Ok, now your a farmer in Nantucket, you dislike American football, and you have an over whelming urge to have sexual relations with a moose. You did not see the Flames win the Cup, it was the Pens, also those saucer people were just swamp gas.

Good bye

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I have a gut feeling the Flames won the Stanley Cup last Friday night. People have tried to tell me otherwise but I don't trust them. The media, other hockey fans, the engraver, they'll all try to tell me something different with 100% certainty, but I'm going to go with my gut feeling over anything I read or watch. I question everything.

go piss up a rope.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

go piss up a rope.

Hey come on now, is that really necessary? You and I share the same philosophy: we believe what we want despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

We should be friends.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

go piss up a rope.

The truthiness hurts.

[Azure]

Another problem with these conspiracy theorists....what exactly is going to change their opinion? What exactly would satisfy their 'questions?'

Its a never-ending circle.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Hey come on now, is that really necessary? You and I share the same philosophy: we believe what we want despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

We should be friends.

well, i don't always trust or believe where the 'evidence' comes from. similar to my thoughts on religion, i don't believe anybody that is selling 100% certainty.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

The truthiness hurts.

i think you are confused. i'm not saying one side or the other is right. all i'm saying is that i believe the media can be just as exagerated one way, as a guy like alex jones can be the other way.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

i think you are confused. i'm not saying one side or the other is right. all i'm saying is that i believe the media can be just as exagerated one way, as a guy like alex jones can be the other way.

countless number of engineers != 'the media'
purdue university != 'the media'

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

well, i don't always trust or believe where the 'evidence' comes from. similar to my thoughts on religion, i don't believe anybody that is selling 100% certainty.

So you think facts and science are the same as religion which is based on faith?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Azure

Another problem with these conspiracy theorists....what exactly is going to change their opinion? What exactly would satisfy their 'questions?'

Its a never-ending circle.

A REAL investigation would help......

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

countless number of engineers != 'the media'
purdue university != 'the media'

There are engineers on both sides of the fence.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

A REAL investigation wouldnt help......

What qualifies as a real investigation to Alex Jones followers? Any investigation that is done by the gov't would completely be invalidated in their eyes.

[moncton golden flames]

you can believe the engineers and universities, but i have not read any of those documents so i can't comment on it. just don't think i should 'believe' what you think i should.

as far as religion goes, i brought it up because they sell 100% certainty, similarly to what you seem to be pushing. i don't buy it.

please, don't reply to this post, as i am digressing from this thread. i spoke up because i think people can believe whatever they want, and should not be subject to badgering, granted, some in this thread provoked discussion, which is great, but not backing down and attacking somebody's belief is assinine.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

There are engineers on both sides of the fence.

Are they the same ones that are telling you tower 7 fell perfectly into its own footprint?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

you can believe the engineers and universities, but i have not read any of those documents so i can't comment on it. just don't think i should 'believe' what you think i should.

didn't you just get real pissy because someone else wanted to believe that the flames won the 08-09 stanley cup finals?

Are you saying he should have to believe the same thing as you?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

countless number of engineers != 'the media'
purdue university != 'the media'

Obi-Wan Kenobi: You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind, until now, until now you've become the very thing you swore to destroy.
Anakin Skywalker: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan! I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Your new Empire?
Anakin Skywalker: Don't make me kill you.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy.
Anakin Skywalker: If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: [realizing that Anakin is consumed by evil and there's no reasoning with him anymore] Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
[draws his lightsaber]
Obi-Wan Kenobi: I will do what I must.
Anakin Skywalker: You will try.
[draws his lightsaber and confronts Obi-Wan]

[jammies]

This thread is gold. I especially like the "sheeple" comments, that zinger never grows old or less relevant.

Fotze said it best with his comments about the government; the idea that an organization of such invincible mediocrity could manage a wide-ranging and successful conspiracy is a joke. I'd be surprised if Bush v.2 could organize a handjob in a whorehouse, never mind the simulated destruction of the World Trade Centre by terrorists.

Humans see patterns everywhere, even where there are no patterns to see. Much like the CIA, as I alluded to in another thread, we have an overabundance of facts from which you can assemble almost any scenario and make it somewhat plausible; facts are only useful when you have an appropriate context from which to understand them. In this case, the study of history tells us that conspiracies are never both large *and* successful, so the idea that the world is actually run, or even merely guided, by some bilderbergers behind the scenes is simply wrong. Data that seems to point otherwise is nothing but noise plucked out of the background and made to seem relevant, and there is no need to *prove* otherwise because it isn't the data that is faulty, it is the assumptions behind the data that are.