Obama cancels abstinence education programs, and riles up everyone

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by WesternCanadaKing

-They made us carry around fake babies for 2 weeks and do stupid crap like change their diapers and 'feed' them.

Seriously? I thought that kind of thing only happened on sit coms.

You didn't meet an overly friendly bicycle repairman, did you?

[Flame Of Liberty]

There should be a law that if a girl gets pregnant in her teenage years, she'll get no child support from the government at all. Nothing, zero, nada. That will teach teens responsibility in no time, they'll wear 5 condoms at once before you can say "if you get knocked up you're on your own girl!"

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

There should be a law that if a girl gets pregnant in her teenage years, she'll get no child support from the government at all. Nothing, zero, nada. That will teach teens responsibility in no time, they'll wear 5 condoms at once before you can say "if you get knocked up you're on your own girl!"

Yeah, cause teens are so great at thinking first and acting second... Plus their really good at making intelligent mature decisions. (Heck, most adults have problems with that too)

This is a stupid idea. I mean it's 'fair' I guess if that's what your looking for, but it won't help any problems and would in fact make them worse.

And I take back the 'fair' bit actually. What's the difference between a 15 year old getting pregnant who can't support and a 20 or 40 year old getting pregnant with no means to support?

Talk about overly simplistic...

As far as the move by Obama, it's a great move, but of course is going to get him in trouble on many sides (like it's showing). Some people think it's too much, and others think it's not enough, and a third group totally misreads the whole plan of action altogether.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Yeah, cause teens are so great at thinking first and acting second... Plus their really good at making intelligent mature decisions. (Heck, most adults have problems with that too)

This is a stupid idea. I mean it's 'fair' I guess if that's what your looking for, but it won't help any problems and would in fact make them worse.

And I take back the 'fair' bit actually. What's the difference between a 15 year old getting pregnant who can't support and a 20 or 40 year old getting pregnant with no means to support?

Talk about overly simplistic...

They're not and that's the point. If paying for their action doesn't teach them, nothing will. If someone needs to get burnt to learn, then so be it. Smarter girls will learn when they'll see their friend with a baby living on sugar water and dry bread. Dumber girls will live on sugar water themselves and maybe their friends will learn from their mistakes.

Simply talking about being responsible is nonsence. One ear in, other ear out. That's not a way to teach responsibility, that's making excuses. Paying for your mistakes is the way to go. This society degenerates by being way too easy on irresponsible teens enough as it is.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

There should be a law that if a girl gets pregnant in her teenage years, she'll get no child support from the government at all. Nothing, zero, nada. That will teach teens responsibility in no time, they'll wear 5 condoms at once before you can say "if you get knocked up you're on your own girl!"

You forgot where we should put them in stocks and throw things at them.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

They're not and that's the point. If paying for their action doesn't teach them, nothing will. If someone needs to get burnt to learn, then so be it. Smarter girls will learn when they'll see their friend with a baby living on sugar water and dry bread. Dumber girls will live on sugar water themselves and maybe their friends will learn from their mistakes.

Simply talking about being responsible is nonsence. One ear in, other ear out. That's not a way to teach responsibility, that's making excuses. Paying for your mistakes is the way to go. This society degenerates by being way too easy on irresponsible teens enough as it is.

I hearby nominate you to live in a neighborhood populated entirely by kids who have been raised in your awesome "tough-love" system.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

They're not and that's the point. If paying for their action doesn't teach them, nothing will. If someone needs to get burnt to learn, then so be it. Smarter girls will learn when they'll see their friend with a baby living on sugar water and dry bread. Dumber girls will live on sugar water themselves and maybe their friends will learn from their mistakes.

Simply talking about being responsible is nonsence. One ear in, other ear out. That's not a way to teach responsibility, that's making excuses. Paying for your mistakes is the way to go. This society degenerates by being way too easy on irresponsible teens enough as it is.

You seem to feel very passionately about this for some reason. But surely you know there is no way your idea will work. It's not going to fix anything, it's only going to breed an new generation of kids who will make bad choices. And then you'll have even more births to unprepared parents. It's a cycle that will continue.

Plus, then the kids are suffering for the parents bad choices, do you want that?

Yes people get social assistance by making bad decisions. Yes some people even abuse it. And yes I think people should be more responsible sexually. But taking away help and support because of some bad apples doesn't help anything. It's just going to cause bigger problems.

If you think making strict rules automatically fixes things you're about as naive as the people on the opposite end of the spectrum who think you can create a utopia if everyone just shared and did the right thing.

There's always going to be people who screw up. Sometimes by honest mistake and sometimes out of their own idiocy or selfishness. The way you keep the problems to a minimum is by educating, and making sure it doesn't become a cycle where you can.

[Kipper is King]

Originally Posted by WesternCanadaKing

-If you practice abstinence, its like giving your partner a new shoe thats never been worn before on your wedding day!
The course finished by making us sign papers promising we'd abstain until marriage. It was a complete waste of time.

Thank you Obama!

Or like saying "Since I married you and I want to spend the rest of my life with you, you're the one I love enough to have sex with." In otherwords, that your spouse is special to you, and you won't have sex with just anyone.

Morals!

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

There should be a law that if a girl gets pregnant in her teenage years, she'll get no child support from the government at all. Nothing, zero, nada. That will teach teens responsibility in no time, they'll wear 5 condoms at once before you can say "if you get knocked up you're on your own girl!"

Laugh.

We're not talking about shoplifting here.

I'm not sure you realize this, but the end result of pregnancy is another person. It's in all our best interests to make sure that the new person has a chance at a decent life.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Laugh.

We're not talking about shoplifting here.

I'm not sure you realize this, but the end result of pregnancy is another person. It's in all our best interests to make sure that the new person has a chance at a decent life.

Right, because I sentenced both the woman and her child to life in prison... She has parents, the guy who got her pregnant has parents. These are the people who should be helping the mom taking care of the kid.

Laugh.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

She has parents, the guy who got her pregnant has parents. These are the people who should be helping the mom taking care of the kid..

How does this jibe with your contention that this measure is intended to teach responsibility? If we have the parents stepping in and helping out, EVERY pregnant teenager will expect their parents to help, and we can't have that - they should all be thrown on the streets to set an example!

Why don't you just admit that your position has nothing to do with morality, and all about the ideology of libertarianism?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by jammies

How does this jibe with your contention that this measure is intended to teach responsibility? If we have the parents stepping in and helping out, EVERY pregnant teenager will expect their parents to help, and we can't have that - they should all be thrown on the streets to set an example!

Hmm? I never said that the parents should not help their pregnant daughter. I said she shouln't be cashing checks from the government and that losing this financial support will act as a detriment to act irresponsible.

I don't see how is that contradictory? If anything, it would give the parents another "tool" how to teach their kids some responsibility - "we won't let you starve but you standard of living will take a hit if you get drunk and stupid."

Originally Posted by jammies

Why don't you just admit that your position has nothing to do with morality, and all about the ideology of libertarianism?

IMO set of moral values = libertarianism (in the classical sense of the word, not to be confused with any libertarian political party)

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Hmm? I never said that the parents should not help their pregnant daughter. I said she shouln't be cashing checks from the government and that losing this financial support will act as a detriment to act irresponsible.

While we're at it, why don't we just exterminate all bears too?

[CrusaderPi]

meh, neither side has an idea that works. STD's and (teen) pregnancy are just something society is going to have to deal with. So we should just go to sleep tonight and hope for the best.

Just like after sex.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

That will teach teens responsibility in no time, they'll wear 5 condoms at once before you can say "if you get knocked up you're on your own girl!"

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Hmm? I never said that the parents should not help their pregnant daughter. I said she shouln't be cashing checks from the government and that losing this financial support will act as a detriment to act irresponsible.

I don't see how the original quote can be construed as anything other than that naughty little teens must be punished by, and I quote, "you're on your own girl!"

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

I don't see how is that contradictory? If anything, it would give the parents another "tool" how to teach their kids some responsibility - "we won't let you starve but you standard of living will take a hit if you get drunk and stupid."

And what if they don't have parents, or have as a parent someone who is already poor? Or what if the parents DON'T step up?

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

IMO set of moral values = libertarianism (in the classical sense of the word, not to be confused with any libertarian political party)

And that's why libertarianism fails - it confuses economics with morality. Which is how you end up advocating children being punished for the bad choices of their parents and calling it "moral".

[gargamel]

The Power Team came to my high school and told us that there are huge holes in condoms and that there is no point to wearing them, so you should just not have sex. They demonstrated this by throwing a tennis ball through a volleyball net, then said, "imagine that the net is the condom, and the tennis ball is AIDS." Then they tore a phone book in half and bent a frying pan. It was awesome.

[flip]

Originally Posted by gargamel

The Power Team came to my high school and told us that there are huge holes in condoms and that there is no point to wearing them, so you should just not have sex. They demonstrated this by throwing a tennis ball through a volleyball net, then said, "imagine that the net is the condom, and the tennis ball is AIDS." Then they tore a phone book in half and bent a frying pan. It was awesome.

I had no idea stuff like that was real. I figured that Simpsons episode was just making this stuff up with the STD clown or whatever.

I went to St Francis here in Calgary and while most teachers were sane and normal in Religion 15 (Grade 10 class) my idiot teacher, who was a friggin football coach no less, told me that natural family planning was 97% effective, just like condoms. It was funny because I got my sex ed in grade 8 in a hick ass public school in Crossfield and they were more liberal and realistic about sex than a big city high school religion classroom. I wonder if anyone in that grade 10 class didn't think the teacher was an asshat.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Daradon

You seem to feel very passionately about this for some reason.

Not really, I am as surprised as you are that I posted so often in this thread I don't have an agenda here, US domestic policies don't affect me.

Originally Posted by Daradon

But surely you know there is no way your idea will work. It's not going to fix anything, it's only going to breed an new generation of kids who will make bad choices. And then you'll have even more births to unprepared parents. It's a cycle that will continue.

Well, the cycle continues if my idea doesn't work, and I don't think it has been proven it cannot work. Financial incentives are very powerful and very clear to see.

I've read (non-english source, so no link) that countries battling illiteracy in their population (or a part of their population) started taking away child support from parents who allowed their kids to bag school. School attendance skyrocketed immediately.

Originally Posted by Daradon

Plus, then the kids are suffering for the parents bad choices, do you want that?

Yes people get social assistance by making bad decisions. Yes some people even abuse it. And yes I think people should be more responsible sexually. But taking away help and support because of some bad apples doesn't help anything. It's just going to cause bigger problems.

Well then I guess we disagree. I believe no one is entlitled to be supported anyway. Financial support is a priviledge, not a right. (cue in the entitled generation thread)

And let's not make it sound like this will cause child poverty of epic proportions in the US (western world). Parents in underdeveloped countries work for endless hours and yet their families enjoy standards of living well bellow American (Canadian, British, ...) knocked up prom queen.

Originally Posted by Daradon

If you think making strict rules automatically fixes things you're about as naive as the people on the opposite end of the spectrum who think you can create a utopia if everyone just shared and did the right thing.

There's always going to be people who screw up. Sometimes by honest mistake and sometimes out of their own idiocy or selfishness. The way you keep the problems to a minimum is by educating, and making sure it doesn't become a cycle where you can.

I don't know if it automatically fixes things, but I think it does offer incentive to fix the problem by taking away a priviledge (not a right), rather than another endless "do this don't do this" talk to bored teens in a classroom. Do what you want, but you're on your own with the consequences of your actions.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by GGG

I agree that teaching at home is the most important aspect but I don't think removing sex ed from schools would be a benefit to teen-agers. I believe (meaning i read somewhere but can't recall where) that there are more unplanned pregnancies in married adult relationships then unplanned teen pregnancies.

I think the school system has to have a role in teaching health. Whether it be making healthy food choices to behaving repsonibly sexually. The general good outways any concerns about parental interfernce.

Agreed for the most part.

I'm just saying that teaching kids about the pill in school doesn't necessarily mean that they'll use proper birth control and have safe sex.

On top of everything the school teaches us, its the parents responsibility when it comes to teaching their kids about safe sex.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Laugh.

We're not talking about shoplifting here.

I'm not sure you realize this, but the end result of pregnancy is another person. It's in all our best interests to make sure that the new person has a chance at a decent life.

Or make sure the mom has a chance of making sure there is no decent life at all....in the end.

Right?