Saudi judge refuses to annul 8-year-old's marriage

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by HOZ

That is such a fallacy. Undoubtedly, some DO choose to wear the thing. Others feel pressure either through cultural/social mores. What would happen if the CHOSE not to wear the thing? That should be the question asked.

also how many muslim women do you see wearing the full garb in the western world? there are many who wear just the headscarf by choice but i have never seen one wearing the full coverup in Calgary. that's the difference between free choice and forced "choice"

[T@T]

Originally Posted by HOZ

That is such a fallacy. Undoubtedly, some DO choose to wear the thing. Others feel pressure either through cultural/social mores. What would happen if the CHOSE not to wear the thing? That should be the question asked.

Who's going to ask? certainly not the mans wife.

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

also how many muslim women do you see wearing the full garb in the western world? there are many who wear just the headscarf by choice but i have never seen one wearing the full coverup in Calgary. that's the difference between free choice and forced "choice"

I have seen several burka clad women at the Westwinds Superstore. Its very disturbing if you ask me. Then again, it might be the same woman each time, impossible to tell.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Also, they had a similar golden age before monothesitic religion took over, much like the golden age in Greece where they had technologies and freedoms that we've just eclipsed over the last 150 years or so.

So true, in fact they were in most respects the enlightened people and Europe was in darkness. One of my favorite books from Bernard Lewis is:
http://www.amazon.com/What-Went-Wron.../dp/0195144201

He talks in depth about what went wrong, how this empire went from being a leader to falling back into almost iron age existence.

People are just people. Not making excuses for them. Just saying, take a good look at yourself in the mirror. There's not a whole lot of difference between you and those clerics down there. I can admit it.

We all have to help each other.

That's a very interesting comment, care to elaborate because I don't see the similarities.

[Daradon]

I guess I'm just saying we have had the advantage of living in a country where we've experienced freedoms and saw the good in the world. And have been educated. Educated on science, and on society. Nature vs. nurture sort of thing. I'm not discounting either, I've always thought it's probably 50/50, but I have to assume that the odds are against you over there. Not to say you can't rise above, just saying it's understandable how things can get to that point. Especially since, our ancestors did it too.

If we lived there, and we just trying to get ahead, or even just practicing what we learned, we could be right there... The human animal reacts similarly across the board when all the chips are down.

EDIT: For those not following my first post, it's not condoning. This is the kind of thing I hate most in the world, and I've always condemned the Saudi ally while other nations get picked on for less or the same. I'm just saying, that was our ancestors not to long ago. We can't afford to label and judge. We need to help, we need to be vigilant even, and yes maybe even take action.

Just don't ever think that your so much better. Because it's really not all that easy. We all have to take care of each other.

EDIT 2: It all comes down to education really. Education lifts up the oppressed and turns tyrants into leaders. Education frees people.

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by peter12

I think that leniency ran out about 400 years ago. Just saying...

As I said, I agree with the sentiment, but the metaphor was simply filled with irony.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Daradon

It all comes down to education really. Education lifts up the oppressed and turns tyrants into leaders. Education frees people.

Too bad the Tyrants and religious ####oo's over there are blocking the right to true education.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by T@T

Too bad the Tyrants and religious ####oo's over there are blocking the right to true education.

I agree with you there. And yeah I know that, and know it's not all that easy either. I just have a problem with people making huge judgments while they do nothing, cause really, that was us not to long ago. We can't just expect their society to behave like ours now, or somehow rush their societal evolution, by doing all the same things we've done.

Now, if we were interested in other countries for their people and ideas, instead of just their resource wealth, than maybe we could take the high road.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Now, if we were interested in other countries for their people and ideas, instead of just their resource wealth, than maybe we could take the high road.

We can take the high road because we do take the high road. If a guy in Canada racked up some sort of debt and paid that debt off with his child he'd be crucified (in the public opinion and media) and sent to prison. So would the guy who accepted the "payment".

I get the whole "it's a different culture and we have to take that into account", but that only goes so far and can only apply to so much. This story is about one "man" selling his child and another "man" buying her, and the transaction is being defended by some disgusting cretin and his idiotic interpretation of a religion.

I'm sure very few (a chosen few -- the pedophiles, nuts and stupid people) agree with this kind of practice. Unfortunately that chosen few have too much (more than zero) power.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

We can take the high road because we do take the high road. If a guy in Canada racked up some sort of debt and paid that debt off with his child he'd be crucified (in the public opinion and media) and sent to prison. So would the guy who accepted the "payment".

And if it got out what they did in prison....and now "the rest of the story"

Maybe we should just huddle all the woman and children together on some safe island and turn the whole middle east into a glass parking lot for the next 1000 years. I truly believe my head could stand it more than the what seems like weekly crazy events that come from there.

[Daradon]

We can't take the high road without action. Yes it's nice we have this knowledge now. But if you have knowledge and opportunity, and don't use it, you really aren't any better are you? You're just indifferent. And that goes double when you can't even see you've made those mistakes too. And could make them again if we allowed ourselves to slip back into a dark age (Which looks like a lot of people want, given the rise of evangeicalism). 'But for the grace of god, so go we. Then the hypocracy kicks in.

At least that's the way I see it. I roundly condemn the actions, and have mentioned many times over other threads that we need to be strickter with countries like Saudi or even cease to be their ally. And that's a point I'm trying to make. We're not innocent in this global tragedy. And we're certainly not better because we have a better life in a nicer country at a particular time of history. We're just lucky.

And I was never saying their culture should get a free pass. I was just saying, 'hey guys we did the same thing. Instead of finger pointing, lets all realize we're connected, we're causing each others problems, all our societies have all made the same mistakes, and that while we're here and now in this time and space, lets help another culture get through it.'

If the US could try a 'regime change' on Iraq to 'liberate the people.' why not do that to Saudi too? Not saying that's the answer here, in fact not as all, but at least it's effort. They could put sanctions on them too, or a whole host of things to stick up for human rights.

Of course we all know why that doesn't happen. And that's the problem. People don't really care. They get involed on a message board and make themselves feel better by saying all the 'right things' and forget about it until the next headline comes.

If you really want to think you are better, e-mail your representatives about human rights and the counties we let get away with them.

Heck, start in your own backyard. E-mail the reps about the growing posibility we could have Sharia law here.

We're not better until we do something about it (or at least try)

Knowledge with out action is a sin (and I use sin in a generic sense).

It would be like being stuck in a snow drift, and a bunch of people crowd around you and tell you how sorry it is, and say 'yup, you are stuck,' when all you need is one or two other people just to help you push.

If you have the knowledge and don't act on it, you can't claim to be that far above the crime, especially when you've committed the same crime in the past.

“Of course we must fear evil men, but there is another evil that we must fear more… and that is the indifference of good men.”

Edit: Re Rouge

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by T@T

Too bad the Tyrants and religious ####oo's over there are blocking the right to true education.

Religion is not about holiness or godliness, it is about power and control. The power of man to control other men. The thing religious leaders fear more than anything is open and free education/society, because it causes them to lose control.

Same reason why such zealots often hate the west. We're far from perfect, but our freedoms to think and to be who we want is anathema to their desire to control.

[VladtheImpaler]

I don't know what people are upset about... This is great for those of us that like to travel. I never thought I'd live to see the day when time travel became possible, but thanks to our Middle Eastern "friends", I now have the option to travel back to the 15th century...

[mykalberta]

Come one, she is grade 2 already - plenty old enough. She knows how to count to 10 and the Alphabet.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

Thankfully, we have Dubai as an example of what a progressive Arab state can look like.

Or not: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...i-1664368.html

Excellent article, it's long but well worth the read. Mind-blowing stuff. Recommended.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Daradon

We can't take the high road without action. Yes it's nice we have this knowledge now. But if you have knowledge and opportunity, and don't use it, you really aren't any better are you? You're just indifferent. And that goes double when you can't even see you've made those mistakes too. And could make them again if we allowed ourselves to slip back into a dark age (Which looks like a lot of people want, given the rise of evangeicalism). 'But for the grace of god, so go we. Then the hypocracy kicks in.

At least that's the way I see it. I roundly condemn the actions, and have mentioned many times over other threads that we need to be strickter with countries like Saudi or even cease to be their ally. And that's a point I'm trying to make. We're not innocent in this global tragedy. And we're certainly not better because we have a better life in a nicer country at a particular time of history. We're just lucky.

I do agree, most people barely even notice whats going on in that part of the world, some will hear this story and be upset and just forget about it. Its human nature, thankfully theres a percentage of activists who do speak out. I hold back posting much more on the middle east here because a lot of people don't like these topics, especially when religion is involved and too much info can overwhelm people who might otherwise consider taking some action.

If the US could try a 'regime change' on Iraq to 'liberate the people.' why not do that to Saudi too? Not saying that's the answer here, in fact not as all, but at least it's effort. They could put sanctions on them too, or a whole host of things to stick up for human rights.

Until we rid ourselves of the need for oil we won't have anyone moving to condemn or sanction the Kingdom, nor is really any west nation willing to be perceived as anti-islam for fear of retaliation, its the Danish cartoons syndrome.

Of course we all know why that doesn't happen. And that's the problem. People don't really care. They get involed on a message board and make themselves feel better by saying all the 'right things' and forget about it until the next headline comes.

If you really want to think you are better, e-mail your representatives about human rights and the counties we let get away with them.

Heck, start in your own backyard. E-mail the reps about the growing posibility we could have Sharia law here.

Well I think its better to at least inform people, even if they don't act. The more people are made aware of this growing problem the better, because there are a bunch of people who do actively get involved, emailing our MPs, our UN reps, etc..

Like for example UN watch does a good job monitoring an organization that doesn't get proper mainstream media coverage, especially on the anti defamation resolution the Arab nations are trying to push through which would make criticism of Islam (and all religions) illegal. Theres lots of stories we don't hear enough about, and unfortunately you have to seek it out to really see whats going on.

Far as I'm concerend step 1 is/should be awareness raising to the public, because any activism that happens in the future only succeeds IF the majority of the people are aware and informed of what is truly happening.

Lest we become the UK and have to be constantly battling attempts by morons to allow Sharia law, have polititians who eagerly want to create more faith based schools and apologetics who do everything in their power to appease to Islam.

Thats what worries me, the slow and steady growth of Islam in western societies, just as any French person how bad its becoming there with the ever growing minority gaining steady power there.

[Thor]

More sad news from the region.

Afghan Taliban kill young woman, man for eloping

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...hjZJQD97I6MUO0

[GirlySports]

And this too
Daughter killed over mini-skirt

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...01-663,00.html

[Thor]

Wow, thats just so messed up.