Ann Coulter on teachers

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by moon

Some first year teachers put in huge hours. Others coast through their first year doing the bare minimum.

Even the slackers have to put out the first few years. By the time they have their lesson and unit plans done up for the year they have put in a good deal of non-classroom work.

[tanguay'sstillgood]

Originally Posted by moon

Most first year teachers put in huge hours. Some (who wont last) coast through their first year doing the bare minimum.

Took care of a couple typos for you here

[moon]

Originally Posted by tanguay'sstillgood

Took care of a couple typos for you here

I know and have seen enough teachers that have done minimal work in their first few years and still made it through to know that that is just not true.

Whether they make it through because of union protection and them getting shuffled off to "easier" positions or because they never get noticed for doing a bad job they still have their jobs 5-10 years later. I guess they still could "not last" but if they have made it 5-10 years I don't think it is likely that they can canned now.

Most of the teachers that I know that "haven't made it" left because they got bored. I know a lot of teachers and people who went into the profession and know of 0 that have been fired for being incompetent or not doing enough work.

[tanguay'sstillgood]

Originally Posted by DESS

You couldn't be more wrong. There are 52 weeks in a year for which teachers get paid a full-time salary. Of those weeks, they work ~36. Even if they put in a 60-70 hour week (which is an absolute fabrication and I can't even believe I'm entertaining such an assinine notion), average that out over the 0 hours per week they work on the 16 weeks they're not teaching and it becomes quite obvious and yet again, they work less than everybody else that works 40 hours per week.

But wait, people in corporate jobs don't work 40 hours a week. My experience in corporate jobs had me on call weekends and I'd often be at the office until 1 or 2 in the morning...even put in a couple of all-nighters. You would never be able to find anybody in a corporate job that works less hours per year than a teacher.

May I ask a question and I sincerely don't mean to be rude, but are you ######ed?

True, why would you entertain this notion? Which one of us has been a first year teacher and actually has real life knowledge of the subject? Which one of us routinely got to work at 8am, got home at 9pm, worked for a few more hours, then repeated the next day? Which one of us worked every Sunday after they kept that other schedule all week? I clearly see why you should dismiss this claim as unrealistic.

Lets check your math:

36 weeks (which was your number, but the actual number is about 39) x 60 hours (the low end of the scale you apparently 'entertained') = 2160 hours

50 weeks (assuming 2 weeks holidays for other jobs - probably low) x 40 hours = 2000 hours

Weird...my results don't match your well thought out and reasearched conclusion...

What job do you do that has you so bitter about all the luxuries teachers enjoy?

Clever_Iggy...I believe your claim of "Speaking out of ignorance" has kinda been proven now (as if it hadn't been before).

[tanguay'sstillgood]

Originally Posted by moon

I know and have seen enough teachers that have done minimal work in their first few years and still made it through to know that that is just not true.

Whether they make it through because of union protection and them getting shuffled off to "easier" positions or because they never get noticed for doing a bad job they still have their jobs 5-10 years later. I guess they still could "not last" but if they have made it 5-10 years I don't think it is likely that they can canned now.

Most of the teachers that I know that "haven't made it" left because they got bored. I know a lot of teachers and people who went into the profession and know of 0 that have been fired for being incompetent or not doing enough work.

True, I can't, and don't actually want to, argue with you about teachers having incredible job protection (including bad teachers). The main point of my post was that most new teacher work their butts off, and it is the large minority that skim by doing the minimum...the lasting part was just tossed in at the end.

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by moon

I know and have seen enough teachers that have done minimal work in their first few years and still made it through to know that that is just not true.

Whether they make it through because of union protection and them getting shuffled off to "easier" positions or because they never get noticed for doing a bad job they still have their jobs 5-10 years later. I guess they still could "not last" but if they have made it 5-10 years I don't think it is likely that they can canned now.

Most of the teachers that I know that "haven't made it" left because they got bored. I know a lot of teachers and people who went into the profession and know of 0 that have been fired for being incompetent or not doing enough work.

They might not get fired, but if they are no good they will not get re-hired. Most school boards hand out permanent contracts reluctantly.

[RougeUnderoos]

I'm not a teacher, but this is how I remember things from grade 5.

We get to school at 8. The teacher is there before us, so let's say 7:30. His work day starts at 7:30.

He teaches until noon, then has lunch, so he's got about 4.5 hours in. Then he has students from 1 - 3:15. He's had kids in front of him for 6 hours, give or take. Tack on detention and after school help until 4. He's had students for somewhere between 6 and 7 hours and he's been in the building for 8.5 hours.

My grade 5 teacher was also the floor hockey coach so two practices and one game a week, so for those three days he's working with kids again from 3:45 to 5:00. That's another hour and change, he's had kids for 7 hours at least.

Now can someone explain to me how this is a half day? Or slacking off? Even if he did have an hour here or there while his class was in the gym or outside, he's still doing work. He's still at work, doing work.

It's a full work day whether you care to admit it or not, and you can tack on after hours marking, prep time and talking to parents on top of it.

And if you have never spent any time teaching other people's children how to do things they don't want to do, you really do not know what you are talking about. Literally, you don't get it.

[moon]

Originally Posted by tanguay'sstillgood

True, I can't, and don't actually want to, argue with you about teachers having incredible job protection (including bad teachers). The main point of my post was that most new teacher work their butts off, and it is the large minority that skim by doing the minimum...the lasting part was just tossed in at the end.

Hey I agree that most teachers do work hard and it is the minority (early on, I think many old teachers really do dog it) that do the minimum.

I do think that there are just as many people who think that teachers have it so bad as there are that think they have it easy.

From my experience in terms of work load and hours teachers are no different than most jobs and you will find all sorts of workers that put in the same hours if they want to do a good job at their career.

It certainly isn't the cushy job that some are making it out but at the same time it is nowhere near the terrible grind that others seem to be stating as well.

Originally Posted by John Doe

They might not get fired, but if they are no good they will not get re-hired. Most school boards hand out permanent contracts reluctantly.

We can go back and forth on this all day but I have seen and know of plenty of bad teachers that have permanent contracts and that were poor both before and after they received it.

Again I am sure they are out there but personally I know of no teachers that have not been offered a permanent contract due to poor performance and I know a lot of teachers/school boards.

[tanguay'sstillgood]

Originally Posted by moon

Hey I agree that most teachers do work hard and it is the minority (early on, I think many old teachers really do dog it) that do the minimum.

I do think that there are just as many people who think that teachers have it so bad as there are that think they have it easy.

From my experience in terms of work load and hours teachers are no different than most jobs and you will find all sorts of workers that put in the same hours if they want to do a good job at their career.

It certainly isn't the cushy job that some are making it out but at the same time it is nowhere near the terrible grind that others seem to be stating as well.

I agree with pretty much all of this, and I am not trying to sit here bitching about my job. I knew what I was getting into and I made my choice. In fact, I don't mind putting in the extra hours because I know it evens out in the summer, and, at least to me, I will trade some time now to get it back in the summer (and I think a lot of people in a lot of different jobs would do this given the chance. It doesn't make them slackers with an easy job).

My goal here has been to try to show DESS that he hasn't the foggiest clue what he is talking about. I'm not saying my job is tougher than yours, I'm just giving the facts as I have experienced them, hoping he will see the light. I like my job and enjoy the perks that come with it. If I didn't, I wouldn't be willing to work all the hours in the day that I do. What I don't like is this closed-minded fella (not you) spouting off about something he doesn't know f-all about.

[moon]

Originally Posted by tanguay'sstillgood

My goal here has been to try to show DESS that he hasn't the foggiest clue what he is talking about.

Good luck with that you are going to need it!

I'm not saying my job is tougher than yours,

I don't have a job so your job is definitely tougher than mine!

What I don't like is this closed-minded fella (not you) spouting off about something he doesn't know f-all about.

Based on his other posts that seems to be what he does.

[bcb]

I am also a first year teacher and can tell you a couple of things I've learned:

1.) The 1/3 of Alberta teachers leaving the profession within the first five years were not simply "bored".

2.) The time the teacher physically leaves the building is not proportional to how good a teacher he or she is.

3.) In order to get tenure (that's a nasty word, isn't it!), the majority of teachers will have to sub, take temp contracts, go through 1 full probationary year, then get tenure. This generally involves a minimum of 4 classroom evaluations by an administrator

4.) A tenured teacher can be fired for incompetence or misconduct. Does it happen everyday? No. Like most other professions, teachers (who haven't committed an egregious act of misconduct), will work with administrators to improve their performance before they are simply fired.

5.) Lets suppose 5% of teachers in any given school board are incompetent: Do you actually believe that in any given large corporation downtown, there aren't 5% of employees slacking off/leaving early/ taking advantage of benefits, etc?

It is my belief that people who are most critical of teachers could never stomach an authority figure presiding over their lives 200 days a year. (They also probably never got along with their parents much either). These people will only be satisfied with one concession from teachers...Work for free, at a private school, 365 days a year.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by DESS

You couldn't be more wrong. There are 52 weeks in a year for which teachers get paid a full-time salary. Of those weeks, they work ~36. Even if they put in a 60-70 hour week (which is an absolute fabrication and I can't even believe I'm entertaining such an assinine notion), average that out over the 0 hours per week they work on the 16 weeks they're not teaching and it becomes quite obvious and yet again, they work less than everybody else that works 40 hours per week.

But wait, people in corporate jobs don't work 40 hours a week. My experience in corporate jobs had me on call weekends and I'd often be at the office until 1 or 2 in the morning...even put in a couple of all-nighters. You would never be able to find anybody in a corporate job that works less hours per year than a teacher.

May I ask a question and I sincerely don't mean to be rude, but are you ######ed?

Well, I just typed a 2 page response to this idiotic post but I guess if you take to long typing at the Maple Leaf Lounge it gets locked out, thus I lost everything.

Neverless, the coles notes of my post basically said that you have no clue in what you are talking about and that you are either someone who doesn't believe in what you are posting just doing it to get a rise out of people, or you are the most ignorant, arrogant, small minded person I have ever met on the internet.

My wife DOES work 50-60 hours a week more often than not and I can give you multiple examples of people in the corprate world working much less and making much more. But you really don't want to hear it because no matter what evidence is provided to you, you will still be just a small minded person.

When I was reading your posts I pegged your age at 12-16 years old. Then you actually admitted to being 32 and that shocked me even more.

Grow up.

[moon]

Originally Posted by bcb

I am also a first year teacher and can tell you a couple of things I've learned:

1.) The 1/3 of Alberta teachers leaving the profession within the first five years were not simply "bored".

2.) The time the teacher physically leaves the building is not proportional to how good a teacher he or she is.

3.) In order to get tenure (that's a nasty word, isn't it!), the majority of teachers will have to sub, take temp contracts, go through 1 full probationary year, then get tenure. This generally involves a minimum of 4 classroom evaluations by an administrator

4.) A tenured teacher can be fired for incompetence or misconduct. Does it happen everyday? No. Like most other professions, teachers (who haven't committed an egregious act of misconduct), will work with administrators to improve their performance before they are simply fired.

5.) Lets suppose 5% of teachers in any given school board are incompetent: Do you actually believe that in any given large corporation downtown, there aren't 5% of employees slacking off/leaving early/ taking advantage of benefits, etc?

Obviously as I have posted different opinions on many of the points above I disagree with a lot posted, particularly the reason why teachers leave and how "difficult" it is to get a permanent contract.

I also don't get the "teachers are as lazy as private workers" as though that is some sort of good thing.

Teachers getting fired is nowhere near to most other professions as well. Perhaps it is similar to other union jobs but no way is it close to a non-union private sector position.

And of course the time a teacher physically leaves the building has no relation to the amount of work they actually could do. Is there someone arguing against that?

It is my belief that people who are most critical of teachers could never stomach an authority figure presiding over their lives 200 days a year. (They also probably never got along with their parents much either).

That must be it!

Sounds like the type of reasoning that DESS would come up with!

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by DESS

May I ask a question and I sincerely don't mean to be rude, but are you ######ed?

Aren't you the guy who suggested the Stampede be a christian themed event? And you're calling others ######ed?

[bcb]

Originally Posted by moon

Obviously as I have posted different opinions on many of the points above I disagree with a lot posted, particularly the reason why teachers leave and how "difficult" it is to get a permanent contract.

I also don't get the "teachers are as lazy as private workers" as though that is some sort of good thing.

Teachers getting fired is nowhere near to most other professions as well. Perhaps it is similar to other union jobs but no way is it close to a non-union private sector position.

And of course the time a teacher physically leaves the building has no relation to the amount of work they actually could do. Is there someone arguing against that?



That must be it!

Sounds like the type of reasoning that DESS would come up with!

1.) I said that there is no relation to how good a teacher is based solely on the time they leave the building.


2.) People who hate cops generally have disrespect for authority, so logical reasoning dictates that people who hate teachers felt likewise in school.

3.) Finally, I never said being as lazy as a corporate worker was a good thing; however, there are some here who are adamant that teachers are far more lazy than corporate workers. So if the status quo is now set at teachers' workload = corporate workload, then perhaps people such as yourself are finally beginning to clue in.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by moon

Where did I say it wasn't like other professions?

I am pointing out that all teachers aren't worked to the bone, slaving over crazy hours and being screwed out of a social life.

Sure some teachers work hard but it isn't like that is a requirement of the job or something that you have to do to be successful.

Like every job if you want to go the extra mile it takes extra time. Teachers aren't any different in this area.

Sorry I wasn't clear... I was agreeing with you 100% and trying to point out that the teaching field is no different then any other field. There are lazy people everywhere and it has nothing to do with the nature of the work.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by igottago

aren't you the guy who suggested the stampede be a christian themed event? And you're calling others ######ed?

[fatso]

Dess is going to be CP's best poster in 2009... I can feel it.

[moon]

Originally Posted by bcb

1.) I said that there is no relation to how good a teacher is based solely on the time they leave the building.

Sorry that I typed it out wrong, either way I agree with you and thought it was pretty evident to most rational people.

2.) People who hate cops generally have disrespect for authority, so logical reasoning dictates that people who hate teachers felt likewise in school.

I think a lot of people that hate cops (and likewise teachers) also do so because they have had bad experiences with both. Seems pretty unlikely that most do so because of some sort of disrespect for authority. But that is just my opinion/experience.

3.) Finally, I never said being as lazy as a corporate worker was a good thing; however, there are some here who are adamant that teachers are far more lazy than corporate workers. So if the status quo is now set at teachers' workload = corporate workload, then perhaps people such as yourself are finally beginning to clue in.

Why would it be people like myself having to clue in. I am fully aware of a teachers' workload and haven't said that teachers were lazy. My point is that they don't work any hard/tougher than most other jobs.

[Clarkey]

Putting the topic of lazy teachers aside, am I the only one who questions the efficiency of the teachers who are allegedly putting in these 12 hour days, evenings, weekends etc.? I would think that a hard working competent teacher should be able to get everything done in an 8-9 hour day, if not it seems like they are not working that efficiently. Granted there are distractions and commitments during the teaching day but there is also a lot of down time too. Other than the occasional overtime for marking papers etc. (most salaried jobs have unpaid overtime) I can't sympathize with the the 12 hour days/50-60 hours a week talk.