Britain, Evolution doubts grow...

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Well, to be clear, it's not so much your throat I'm jumping down, more as a collective whole CP-wise. It's becoming a joke to me that about half the threads I read has some disjointed post in it that makes an assumption about the thread, when, in fact, the thread is going in a completely different direction.

Your post, in particular is pretty out of place. Really, nowhere in the thread were chriatians bashed. The thread is more about whether evolution should be considered fact, what a theory is, and why some people believe in the earth being only a few thousand years old.

So, as you and I have never had reasons to dislike each other, I say this with respect, read before you post.

Did you read the original post?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Kipper is King

OK, I am going to try and explain how I see that issue. I do believe in God and that God created life on earth. I don't see it as if God just turned on a light switch and then left the room, leaving humanity entirely to their own devices for survival.

I guess I see it a bit differently.. If I was going to believe in God, a God that designed the universe, the laws of physics, etc, in such a way that it would eventually lead to life starting, evolving, becoming sentient, and eventually contemplating God is FAR more impressive a God than one that has to constantly reach in and tweak the system manually from time to time. Create the universe, except things didn't go quite right so just start life a bit here.. except that didn't go exactly right so push things here to make sure a brain develops.. etc..

Originally Posted by Kipper is King

So that's my two cents. I hope I added something worthwhile, but these are certainly some big issues to tackle! (Speaking of tackling, go Cardinals go! )

Interesting, and I appreciate your post. Heh, free will vs. determinism and how that relates to salvation and such is a whole other thread. I'll just make one point, if evil is a consequence of free will, will there be free will in heaven?

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I don't think gravity is a good comparable, do you? Gravity has held up to tests, scientific and not, a bazillion times every day.

The effect of gravity has been observed, but we actually understand far less about the how and why of gravity than we do evolution. We've devised the biggest, most expensive experiment in human history (The LHC) to help us find out more about gravity, a profoundly mysterious force in the universe.

It's a much more difficult concept for a person to get their head around than is gravity or the spherical shape of our planet, things that can bee seen.

But it's easy to claim that the effects of evolution are as simply observed as the effects of gravity. A simple glance at the similarities between all mammals has always been enough for people to conclude that these creatures are related to each other in some fashion. Likewise, things are drawn towards the earth, the effect of gravity simply observed, but the concept that mass causes fluctuations in space-time which curve the trajectories of other objects with mass - which is as far as we've gotten in our understanding of gravity - is a very, very weird concept which I don't think a lot of people actually 'have their head around.

I don't think it's fair and definitely not very noble. It almost certainly won't help him further his cause and it's the exact reason why I despise organized religion. Self-righteousness is not a virtue, and you can define my term the correct way (religion, morality) or my newly made up way (proclaimation of ultimate correctness).

I agree completely. Telling someone they are stupid if they don't buy never helps you convince them of whatever you're selling. Unless it's a Sham-WOW. Those things sell themselves.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Did you read the original post?

Yeah. I did. Did you? Does he single out christians? Why are you getting defensive about it? You're arguing some pretty damn good points in this thread. Now you're getting defensive about poor christians getting bashed?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Did you read the original post?

I don't think Thor was bashing all Christians.

Originally Posted by Thor

No more polite disagreement, this kind of anti science has to end, its not OK to doubt truth because you follow some particular belief system based on 2000 yr old books.

I didn't take that to mean all Christians, I took that to speak specifically about people who reject evolution because of their specific interpretation of the books. I could be wrong though.

And I would support Thor in that.

You say to show them the evidence.. that's the problem, is the evidence has been shown. Over and over. I've had it argued against me on this very forum that scientists are part of a conspiracy to promote evil evolution. That's the kind of thing where polite disagreement is over.

If someone honestly seeks to know more, that's great. If they are open to changing their mind, wonderful.

It's the dogmatic ones that reject evolution on principle because it disagrees with their interpretation of the inerrant scriptures that deserve no more politeness.

[alltherage]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Well, to be clear, it's not so much your throat I'm jumping down, more as a collective whole CP-wise. It's becoming a joke to me that about half the threads I read has some disjointed post in it that makes an assumption about the thread, when, in fact, the thread is going in a completely different direction.

Your post, in particular is pretty out of place. Really, nowhere in the thread were chriatians bashed. The thread is more about whether evolution should be considered fact, what a theory is, and why some people believe in the earth being only a few thousand years old.

So, as you and I have never had reasons to dislike each other, I say this with respect, read before you post.

I think my post is perfectly valid, but probably late in the thread. I see that you guys are in a different stage of discussion here but I was responding to posts on the first page. I should have "quoted" them.

And by the way, we DO have a reason to dislike each other. It's because we have had an internet disagreement!!!! So like, STFU n00b! j/k

[liamenator]

It's been pointed out here already, but I think what a lot of people get frustrated with is when the vehemence with which a certain segment of the scientific community argue against their opposition. The language adopted by both sides becomes interchangeable. "This is a fact that cannot be questioned and everyone who disagrees with me is stupid, archaic, and needs to be stopped."

It becomes a discussion of lowest-common-denominators.

My problem with Dawkins and that whole movement is that they are politicizing a scientific discussion of religion via the mainstream media. This is a dangerous equation.

It doesn't matter what belief or cause is being argued, when people start framing their discussions as doctrine, I get nervous. And here I am not just talking about evolutionists. You can apply the same thing to religion, politics, history, sociology, cultural theory... whatever.

Thor brought up Sagan and I'd just like to point out, perhaps one of the reasons a man such as he was so universally respected was precisely because he transcended the kind of juvenile name-calling that we are so often subjected to in contemporary debates around these subjects. Sagan believed in and was immensely successful in spreading positive messages about science and thought, rather than rushing to join the queue of negativity and one-upsmanship. Because what Sagan understood so well is that to truly affect change in a lasting, meaningful way, the key is to give people information in a positive context, which can then help them to think and come to conclusions independantly; trying to impose your will upon people is counter-productive.

Beacuse then, we just all end up shouting at one another.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Yeah. I did. Did you? Does he single out christians? Why are you getting defensive about it? You're arguing some pretty damn good points in this thread. Now you're getting defensive about poor christians getting bashed?

How would it be possible for me to be defensive? I asked a simple question and that's defensive? Really?

[photon]

Originally Posted by liamenator

My problem with Dawkins and that whole movement is that they are politicizing a scientific discussion of religion via the mainstream media. This is a dangerous equation.

Well, they started it!

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

How would it be possible for me to be defensive? I asked a simple question and that's defensive? Really?

Ah, just carry on. Nothing to see here. Maybe defensive is the wrong word. You insinuated that the OP dissed christians, and that is what I was referring to.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

I don't think Thor was bashing all Christians.



I didn't take that to mean all Christians, I took that to speak specifically about people who reject evolution because of their specific interpretation of the books. I could be wrong though.

And I would support Thor in that.

You say to show them the evidence.. that's the problem, is the evidence has been shown. Over and over. I've had it argued against me on this very forum that scientists are part of a conspiracy to promote evil evolution. That's the kind of thing where polite disagreement is over.

If someone honestly seeks to know more, that's great. If they are open to changing their mind, wonderful.

It's the dogmatic ones that reject evolution on principle because it disagrees with their interpretation of the inerrant scriptures that deserve no more politeness.

\

That's how I saw the post too.

They may not deserve any more politeness, and if that's the case, they don't deserve to be pointed out as stupid either. Irrelevant would be a better label given his stance.

How can you blame people for being unwilling to learn if you are unwilling to continue to try and teach?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Ah, just carry on. Nothing to see here. Maybe defensive is the wrong word. You insinuated that the OP dissed christians, and that is what I was referring to.

He did. He definitely insulted Christians who systematically deny evolution based on their faith's teachings.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

They may not deserve any more politeness, and if that's the case, they don't deserve to be pointed out as stupid either. Irrelevant would be a better label given his stance.

Far from irrelevant since they hold a significant amount of political power and continue to use the legal system to try and influence what's taught in science classes to kids.

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

How can you blame people for being unwilling to learn if you are unwilling to continue to try and teach?

Chicken and egg thing?

I don't know, when I determine that's someone willfully ignorant (far worse than stupid IMO) why continue to try and teach? If the answer to the question "what would change your mind" is "nothing ever could", what's the point? Though personally I usually do anyway just because I can never let things go, but that's my psychological problem

Stupid may be the wrong word, but only because of the definition not because of the strength.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

He did. He definitely insulted Christians who systematically deny evolution based on their faith's teachings.

OK. Well, I read it as: inside of every religion, there are people that deny obvious evidence.

No where did he single out "Christians" as a whole. Some christians, yeah. Just like some people in all faiths.

What I replied to was ATR assuming that ALL christians were getting bashed. That has since been cleared up. Now you're just getting defensive. Relax, man. The discussion doesn't need this.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by 4X4

OK. Well, I read it as: inside of every religion, there are people that deny obvious evidence.

No where did he single out "Christians" as a whole. Some christians, yeah. Just like some people in all faiths.

What I replied to was ATR assuming that ALL christians were getting bashed. That has since been cleared up. Now you're just getting defensive. Relax, man. The discussion doesn't need this.

Fair enough. I'm not getting defensive. Wouldn't that require that I was a Christian?

[Kipper is King]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

He did. He definitely insulted Christians who systematically deny evolution based on their faith's teachings.

But not ALL Christians bluntly deny evolution. Most don't in fact (like myself, see above posts). It's a matter of fact, that when someone states an opinion, someone will have a different one.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Far from irrelevant since they hold a significant amount of political power and continue to use the legal system to try and influence what's taught in science classes to kids.



Chicken and egg thing?

I don't know, when I determine that's someone willfully ignorant (far worse than stupid IMO) why continue to try and teach? If the answer to the question "what would change your mind" is "nothing ever could", what's the point? Though personally I usually do anyway just because I can never let things go, but that's my psychological problem

Stupid may be the wrong word, but only because of the definition not because of the strength.

That's what I'm saying. I don't have a problem with giving up on them coming around, but at that point how can you bash them for it? Just ignore and move on.

You'll have to explain why political power has anything to do with the argument though. I'm missing the connection. Why is it politically important for these folks to be enlightened?

[photon]

An interesting semi-topical post this morning by the Bad Astronomer:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba...tic-etiquette/

http://twistedphysics.typepad.com/co...etiquette.html

As always, talking on a forum is difficult because so much of what makes good communication is lacking, so while a poster has to consider that, so should a reader.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Fair enough. I'm not getting defensive. Wouldn't that require that I was a Christian?

OK then. Glad we're on the same page.

Originally Posted by Kipper is King

But not ALL Christians bluntly deny evolution. Most don't in fact (like myself, see above posts). It's a matter of fact, that when someone states an opinion, someone will have a different one.

Absolutely. I felt the need to clarify that this was not a christian bashing thread and now the thread is deviating from a very good discussion.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

That's what I'm saying. I don't have a problem with giving up on them coming around, but at that point how can you bash them for it? Just ignore and move on.

If they didn't keep poking their nose in it'd be easy to ignore them. It's hard to ignore them though when they start lawsuits and try to have laws changed.

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

You'll have to explain why political power has anything to do with the argument though. I'm missing the connection. Why is it politically important for these folks to be enlightened?

Because they wield enough political power that it impacts everyone, not just themselves. If someone wants to sit in their house and say the sky is red, knock yourself out. But if a group wields enough political power to change the education system to teach the sky is blue OR red, to set scientific policy so that research into the sky is dissuaded because dogma makes research into other possible colours of the sky immoral, that impacts everyone.

Ignorant students make ignorant citizens. Less scientists, falling behind in technology.. technology is necessary to the survival and thriving of society now, without it we can't feed everyone, we can't help people that are sick. Scientific literacy is very important, anything that undermines that has to be looked at carefully.