Britain, Evolution doubts grow...

[Displaced Flames fan]

Thor, please don't use scientific theories and fact in the same sentence. Science does not prove things, but is a method of DISPROVING. Yes, scientific theories can become solid enough to be accepted as fact, but that doesn't change that they are fallable, or at least could be.

Can't you just say "people who are willing to ignore the overwhelming evidence in support of the theory"? Much closer to reality and makes you sound a little less full of yourself.

You need to keep that in mind when lifting yourself upon high in response to this kind of thing.

BTW...does the theory of evolution state that all life came from the exact same cell? (honest question)

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Thor, please don't use scientific theories and fact in the same sentence.

Some theories are so well supported, they are considered facts in the common parlance.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by troutman

Some theories are so well supported, they are considered facts in the common parlance.

Did you read past the line you quoted?

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by Thor

All things are connected, if you can believe Evolution is false its a point that affects the rest of your logical brain.

I can't stop caring, the world is heading for ideological conflicts that will most defiantly affect our children;s future.

You can't ignore those who ignore science over faith, you can't ignore people who refute truths over faith.

Its not a minority, its not a insignificant part of the world.

I don't see those who disagree as enemies, or inhuman monsters. I see them as misinformed, well intention people who need to be given the facts and logic behind the things they fight against and then for them to make up their own minds based upon both sides of the argument.

Obviously the logical side usually wins, at least we hope.

You sound like a Pastor just with topics reversed.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Kipper is King

For me, evolution and God never are such a big squabble.

Evolution happened.

God exists.

Those two things in my mind are both true, and they do not cancel out each other. Why can't we say that while evolution did occur, it happened because God made it occur? Just because God may exist does not mean that science goes out the window, but the fact that empirical sciences "work" does not mean in my mind that God is not out there, or did not create us.

Of course they don't cancel each other out. It's not scientists that place evolution in opposition with God, it's young earth creationists with their agenda. They say that evolution is evil and a ploy to corrupt people and lead them away from God. They work to have evolution either removed from school, or barring that placing other things in the science classroom to undermine evolution based on their religious view.

Most Christians don't have a problem with evolution, it's a very vocal minority of Biblical literalists that cannot abide the creation myth being a myth, or abide the idea that a global flood didn't happen that are the ones that equivocate evolution and atheism and place God and evolution at odds with each other.

What's at odds isn't God and evolution, it's evolution and blind adherence to a specific interpretation of scripture.

This is always my question to people who, in a discussion about evolution, suddenly start talking about God not existing.. why do some Christians have to equivocate evolution and atheism?

Originally Posted by Kipper is King

Why can't we say that while evolution did occur, it happened because God made it occur?

I guess, if you mean in the same way that God made gravity occur. No one thinks that God takes an active role in making you fall down if you trip, same thing with evolution... the laws of the universe are conducive to it. More of a deist kind of God though.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

BTW...does the theory of evolution state that all life came from the exact same cell? (honest question)

In effect yes. I think population of cells would be more accurate, though. It's difficult to say where exactly "the" single common ancestor was, if it was at a cellular level or further back.

The genetic evidence supports that all life has a common ancestor.

[alltherage]

We should make a new forum called "Christian Bashing" on CP for all these threads. It seems to be a very common theme.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Thor, please don't use scientific theories and fact in the same sentence. Science does not prove things, but is a method of DISPROVING. Yes, scientific theories can become solid enough to be accepted as fact, but that doesn't change that they are fallable, or at least could be.

True, though I'll bring up the quote that I already posted:

“In science ‘fact’ can only mean ‘confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent’"

Evolution is easily falsified. Scientists have been trying for 150 years.

People trust gravity to always work. I'm not going to jump off a building on the idea that the theory of gravity is fallible. Same thing with evolution, yes it's a theory, but at this stage to not accept it without contrary evidence is silly.

[photon]

Originally Posted by alltherage

We should make a new forum called "Christian Bashing" on CP for all these threads. It seems to be a very common theme.

See, why would you say that, when more Christians than not accept evolution?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

In effect yes. I think population of cells would be more accurate, though. It's difficult to say where exactly "the" single common ancestor was, if it was at a cellular level or further back.

The genetic evidence supports that all life has a common ancestor.

I think that's inherently difficult for some people to believe, regardless of the influence of religion. Given the amazing spectrum of life on this planet and the relatively slow rate at which things change here, it's a bit of a project to imagine enough unique factors working on individual groups to create that much diversity.

(No, I'm not talking about a 10K year old earth either}

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I think that's inherently difficult for some people to believe, regardless of the influence of religion. Given the amazing spectrum of life on this planet and the relatively slow rate at which things change here, it's a bit of a project to imagine enough unique factors working on individual groups to create that much diversity.

(No, I'm not talking about a 10K year old earth either}

Sure it is difficult to accept if it's not well understood, but I lay that difficulty partially at the feet of the eduction system. First for not teaching it well enough, second for not teaching good ways of thinking so that people can recognize the logical fallacy of personal incredulity in themselves.

The other difficulty is simply our inability to comprehend the time frames involved; our brains simply can't deal with 4 billion years.

This is one of the strengths of science; it's a way of knowing that overcomes inherent deficiencies in our brains or way of observing or whatever.

EDIT: To draw parallels, no one really understands quantum mechanics but people don't answer no on polls if they accept it or not, and people don't try to have quantum mechanics undermined in the education system. Same things with special and general relativity, very difficult things to really understand, but people don't reject those based on their lack of understanding either. They will however reject the Big Bang and evolution strongly, so I think the influence of some people's interpretation of their religion does play a role.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

True, though I'll bring up the quote that I already posted:

“In science ‘fact’ can only mean ‘confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent’"

Evolution is easily falsified. Scientists have been trying for 150 years.

People trust gravity to always work. I'm not going to jump off a building on the idea that the theory of gravity is fallible. Same thing with evolution, yes it's a theory, but at this stage to not accept it without contrary evidence is silly.

I don't think gravity is a good comparable, do you? Gravity has held up to tests, scientific and not, a bazillion times every day.

Evolution is not so easily tested and it largely depends on the accuracy of other science, like genetics. Additionally, there is undoubtedly a large amount of undiscovered and untested evidence out there still.

It's a much more difficult concept for a person to get their head around than is gravity or the spherical shape of our planet, things that can bee seen. Thor is reconciling this simply be proclaiming folks stupid.

I don't think it's fair and definitely not very noble. It almost certainly won't help him further his cause and it's the exact reason why I despise organized religion. Self-righteousness is not a virtue, and you can define my term the correct way (religion, morality) or my newly made up way (proclaimation of ultimate correctness).

[4X4]

Originally Posted by alltherage

We should make a new forum called "Christian Bashing" on CP for all these threads. It seems to be a very common theme.

No. But we could make a sub forum for people that open threads and figure they know what's being discussed and then post something ignorant.

[alltherage]

Originally Posted by photon

See, why would you say that, when more Christians than not accept evolution?

I say it because of these statements:

If Religion keeps pushing doubt against a fact like Evolution, we need to find better ways to explain and show the average citizen of the world that this isn't some 'contraversial' theory, but fact.

Certainly thats true, but you however you have Holocaust deniers, including some involved with the Vatican.

I am Christian, and I beleive in Evolution to an extent, but I don't believe that humans came from apes or whatever. We may have evolved from another physical form, but I beleive we were always human, and always had the ability to reason, and have always had separation from other life forms in that sense.

[alltherage]

Originally Posted by 4X4

No. But we could make a sub forum for people that open threads and figure they know what's being discussed and then post something ignorant.

You don't have to jump down my throat over it, in the first few posts there were already shots essentially calling creationists ignorant and stupid. I took exception to that, but I should have explained it better. You have my explanation in the post above.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I don't think gravity is a good comparable, do you? Gravity has held up to tests, scientific and not, a bazillion times every day.

I think it is comparable, evolution has also held up to tests, maybe not a bazillion, but 150 years worth of hundreds of thousands of scientists. Predictions made and confirmed, direct observation, etc.

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Evolution is not so easily tested and it largely depends on the accuracy of other science, like genetics. Additionally, there is undoubtedly a large amount of undiscovered and untested evidence out there still.

You can say the same things about any other theory, there's always undiscovered and untested evidence.. those are no reason not to provisionally accept a theory as accurate, because the theory IS accurate given the conditions it was observed under.. new evidence would be new conditions.

And it's not so much as evolution depending on other sciences like genetics, genetics didn't exist when evolution was established. It's more a case of many different disciplines of science (genetics, developmental biology, geology, cosmology, chemistry, physics) all coming to the same conclusions via very different paths, independent of each other. That lends strength to the theory.

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

It's a much more difficult concept for a person to get their head around than is gravity or the spherical shape of our planet, things that can bee seen. Thor is reconciling this simply be proclaiming folks stupid.

See the edit in my last post I think I cover this a bit. Yes it's more difficult, but some people don't accept or reject it because it's difficult, some do so for other reasons. For me anyway those are the people I would call willfully ignorant (I prefer that to stupid, stupid means can't understand, most could easily understand if they took their blinders off).

[Kipper is King]

Interesting reply to my post above, Photon. You're right that blindly stumbling head-over-heels into religion is not good, versus believing in one's faith and still seeing science for being a worthwhile endeavor.

Originally Posted by photon

I guess, if you mean in the same way that God made gravity occur. No one thinks that God takes an active role in making you fall down if you trip, same thing with evolution... the laws of the universe are conducive to it. More of a deist kind of God though.

OK, I am going to try and explain how I see that issue. I do believe in God and that God created life on earth. I don't see it as if God just turned on a light switch and then left the room, leaving humanity entirely to their own devices for survival.

I think that the concept of free will could have an impact on something as mundane as tripping... Firstly, theoretically, God could have made us all robots and he's having a great time playing The Sims with us all! But I believe God gave us free will, the ability to make our own decisions and be in control of our actions. Believers like myself use that as a way to try and explain why evil things happen in the world. I think that extends even to "God gave you free will- you are able to control how you put one foot in front of the other, and you screwed it up. Therefore, you fall flat on your face!"

So, what bails God out here? He doesn't sound very nice if he just lets us all fall over when we trip. Why doesn't he stop that, and let no harm ever come to anyone?

See, as a believer in God, and eternal life, I think the whole free will thing is a test of sorts. You live a "good" life according to God , then you get to go to Heaven. It's like being drafted to the Flames, except way better! However, the whole free will morality test that is life (as I see it) would be faulty if God didn't allow harm to come to us- by way of other human beings in evil deeds (a direct abusal of free will), or even our own mistakes.

I think God tries to balance things out, a plan of sorts to ensure everyone at least has a chance at a degree of happiness over the course of their (earth-bound) life. Sometimes it doesn't work out, I think because mistakes were made by themselves or others- the free will idea as I see it was "tripped up" or violated. We just hope we get "drafted" to the "big show" in the end!

So that's my two cents. I hope I added something worthwhile, but these are certainly some big issues to tackle! (Speaking of tackling, go Cardinals go! )

[photon]

Originally Posted by alltherage

I say it because of these statements:

That's not bashing Christianity, that is a statement of fact. Some religious organizations exist for the sole purpose of undermining evolution because they see it as evil and a deception from the devil to take people from God. They fight through the legal system to introduce non-scientific topics that undermine evolution into the science classroom.

How is talking about the groups doing this bashing Christianity? Christians themselves are highly vocal in criticizing these groups.

Originally Posted by alltherage

I am Christian, and I beleive in Evolution to an extent, but I don't believe that humans came from apes or whatever. We may have evolved from another physical form, but I beleive we were always human, and always had the ability to reason, and have always had separation from other life forms in that sense.

Evolution doesn't say humans came from apes, it says apes and humans share a common ancestor. If you don't accept that, then you don't accept evolution at all. And this is the crux of the problem, you don't accept evolution, because basically you don't want to.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by alltherage

You don't have to jump down my throat over it, in the first few posts there were already shots essentially calling creationists ignorant and stupid. I took exception to that, but I should have explained it better. You have my explanation in the post above.

Well, to be clear, it's not so much your throat I'm jumping down, more as a collective whole CP-wise. It's becoming a joke to me that about half the threads I read has some disjointed post in it that makes an assumption about the thread, when, in fact, the thread is going in a completely different direction.

Your post, in particular is pretty out of place. Really, nowhere in the thread were chriatians bashed. The thread is more about whether evolution should be considered fact, what a theory is, and why some people believe in the earth being only a few thousand years old.

So, as you and I have never had reasons to dislike each other, I say this with respect, read before you post.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Thanks for the concise responses Photon, though I was never arguing with you or evolution.

My point was simply that declaring a theory fact and belittling those who don't accept the theory and do have a faith based belief is a bit of hypocracy. Show them the evidence.

"We don't have all the answers, but these are the scientific tests and results of the theory."


For the record, Photon is the only person on our side of the coin (belief in God) that has no problem reconciling the two and is readily willing to say that scientists don't use evolution to disprove the existence of a God. That information would be even more helpful to the cause.
Much better strategy than "You're stupid."