Alberta's Ticket Out? Poll

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

2. Alberta merges with BC, Sask and maybe the NWT/Yukon.

The act calls for provinces to separate "individually"; any merging would be post separation.

As it stands, we'd be very reliant on the good faith of one of our two new neighbors. A very unenviable position that would end with economic disparity, or being forced to rejoin Canada at a heavy cost, or joining the US with a diminished bargaining position.

A landlocked nation with 3.4m people wouldn't be a great thing. Though neither is living in an NDP/Bloc dominated country...

Seems to be working ok for the 7 + M people in landlocked Switzerland.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

There's only two ways I'd support Alberta secession:

1. Alberta becomes the 51st US State
2. Alberta merges with BC, Sask and maybe the NWT/Yukon.

As it stands, we'd be very reliant on the good faith of one of our two new neighbors. A very unenviable position that would end with economic disparity, or being forced to rejoin Canada at a heavy cost, or joining the US with a diminished bargaining position.

A landlocked nation with 3.4m people wouldn't be a great thing. Though neither is living in an NDP/Bloc dominated country...

Serious?

The NDP hold 37 seats. They have no terms on their deal with the Liberals -- kinda stupid but whatever.

The Bloc hold 49 seats. They have set terms of 1.5 years of cooperation with the Liberal party, at the end of which they will reconsider things. Through out this entire thing, the Bloc have demonstrated themselves as being the most level headed, cooperative and mature party in Ottawa. They understand how to represent their interests and to work with other parties to get those interests enacted.

The Liberals have 77 seats.

The Conservatives have 143 seats. No where in those numbers do I see the horror of a "NDP/Bloc dominated government".

Honestly, I'd like to see Canada have more parties and learn to embrace multidimensional politics. I know this is basically blasphemy to most Conservative doctrine (absolute power is the only way to morally lead), but it's the easiest way to govern such a diverse country. Assuming we can make the intellectual and moral jump to the maturity level needed.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by V

I don't want to separate. I just want to threaten to separate. It worked well for Quebec, why not us?

This is actually the position i am starting to grow fond of. I don't want to, nor think the majority of albertans will ever want to seperate. But perhaps a close referendum might get us some of the special treatment quebec gets.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Technically speaking, Canadian isn't a nation either.

Canada prides itself on being a nation of nations.

Could not Alberta claim a nationhood on a similar premise?

Well, Molson would argue with you... and I would to. Canada has a long tradition of shared ideals. Remembrance Day demonstrates these ideals in a very strong way. Albertans didn't go to war, Canadians did.

I was born in Calgary. I am as Albertan as they come. I do not consider myself Albertan. It is a label designed to indicate where I live. My culture, and my nationality is 100% Canadian.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by Dan02

This is actually the position i am starting to grow fond of. I don't want to, nor think the majority of albertans will ever want to seperate. But perhaps a close referendum might get us some of the special treatment quebec gets.

DING DING DING!!

Regional parties WORK for Canada. Overbearing "Federal" parties do not work very well.

Just look at how effective the Bloc have been. Now imagine a parliament full of parties representing specific regions and/or specific issues and we have a functioning party system government. I will cry tears of joy if this ever comes to pass.

Complexity is something to hope for in a political system. Simplistic power mongering (Conservatives/Liberals) is not.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by llama64

DING DING DING!!

Regional parties WORK for Canada. Overbearing "Federal" parties do not work very well.

Just look at how effective the Bloc have been. Now imagine a parliament full of parties representing specific regions and/or specific issues and we have a functioning party system government. I will cry tears of joy if this ever comes to pass.

Complexity is something to hope for in a political system. Simplistic power mongering (Conservatives/Liberals) is not.

Well Israel has a lot of complexity, lots of parties representing specific issues etc and their system of governing is a shambles.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by llama64

Well, Molson would argue with you... and I would to. Canada has a long tradition of shared ideals. Remembrance Day demonstrates these ideals in a very strong way. Albertans didn't go to war, Canadians did.

I was born in Calgary. I am as Albertan as they come. I do not consider myself Albertan. It is a label designed to indicate where I live. My culture, and my nationality is 100% Canadian.

We also went to War as British subjects, did that make us any less Canadian?

What about people who come to Canada from foreign lands (which is pretty much everyone), do they become Canadian, or do they and their progeny forever remain outposts of their own nationality? Again, why would this be any different with a new nation?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by 4X4

C'mon, man...

Are you here to talk about the topic or are you here to just point out technicalities? You've gotten me all riled up, now you're just going to turtle?

You must be new to political threads, four-by. That's Ronald's MO.

Anyway, I've always been a soft-federalist at best, and I wouldn't exactly cry if we chose to dump Ontario and Quebec and go it on our own. Will this cause the people to rise up and overthrow Ottawa? Nope. But imagine if we had a premier with the kind of passion Lougheed had right now? If nothing else, I'd love to see Alberta precipitate a constitutional crisis by holding a referendum on whether we wish to withdraw support for the Constitution.

Canada has been broken for a very long time now, and while Meech Lake and Charlottetown both failed in attempts to remake this country, this disgraceful performance by the people supposedly elected to represent us argues strongly for the need to try again.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by llama64

Serious?

The NDP hold 37 seats. They have no terms on their deal with the Liberals -- kinda stupid but whatever.

The Bloc hold 49 seats. They have set terms of 1.5 years of cooperation with the Liberal party, at the end of which they will reconsider things. Through out this entire thing, the Bloc have demonstrated themselves as being the most level headed, cooperative and mature party in Ottawa. They understand how to represent their interests and to work with other parties to get those interests enacted.

The Liberals have 77 seats.

The Conservatives have 143 seats. No where in those numbers do I see the horror of a "NDP/Bloc dominated government".

Honestly, I'd like to see Canada have more parties and learn to embrace multidimensional politics. I know this is basically blasphemy to most Conservative doctrine (absolute power is the only way to morally lead), but it's the easiest way to govern such a diverse country. Assuming we can make the intellectual and moral jump to the maturity level needed.

If Alberta was to separate, it would mean there is a coalition of the three stooges... and yes, anything the Liberals want to pass would have to be approved by both parties. How is that not domination?

This discussion is rather moot without a catalyst... I'm assuming the catalyst is an elected leftist coalition attacking the west with NEP 2, etc. anything short of that, and we're not talking about this. But since this is a discussion thread on what ifs, why not indulge in that hypothetical.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by llama64

Serious?

The NDP hold 37 seats. They have no terms on their deal with the Liberals -- kinda stupid but whatever.

The Bloc hold 49 seats. They have set terms of 1.5 years of cooperation with the Liberal party, at the end of which they will reconsider things. Through out this entire thing, the Bloc have demonstrated themselves as being the most level headed, cooperative and mature party in Ottawa. They understand how to represent their interests and to work with other parties to get those interests enacted.

The Liberals have 77 seats.

The Conservatives have 143 seats. No where in those numbers do I see the horror of a "NDP/Bloc dominated government".

Honestly, I'd like to see Canada have more parties and learn to embrace multidimensional politics. I know this is basically blasphemy to most Conservative doctrine (absolute power is the only way to morally lead), but it's the easiest way to govern such a diverse country. Assuming we can make the intellectual and moral jump to the maturity level needed.

I will take a wild guess that math was not your strong subject in school.
Or maybe you don't grasp the idea of a coalition. It is calling for all three opposition parties to work together, which is 163 seats.....

It will not work with any two of them and because the NDP and Libs are pretty much the same cloth.... the Bloq really holds the control.

One more guess..... You are one of the 200 some people who signed this
http://causes.ca/coalition

[CaptainCrunch]

I've changed my mind, if the NDP and Liberal's just paid over a billion dollars to the seperatists and the province of Quebec to take over the government, then I want no part of this country anymore. The concept of Canada and fairness in the confederation are dead.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

If Alberta was to separate, it would mean there is a coalition of the three stooges... and yes, anything the Liberals want to pass would have to be approved by both parties. How is that not domination?

This discussion is rather moot without a catalyst... I'm assuming the catalyst is an elected leftist coalition attacking the west with NEP 2, etc. anything short of that, and we're not talking about this. But since this is a discussion thread on what ifs, why not indulge in that hypothetical.

You don't think Dion will make a move to activate his carbon plan?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...er-carbon.html

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by First Lady

You don't think Dion will make a move to activate his carbon plan?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...er-carbon.html

You don't think the CPC already did?

Last Friday's issue of The Economist

Reversing its previous stance, Canada’s government said it would support a cap-and-trade system to limit emissions, matching a commitment made by Barack Obama.

http://www.economist.com/world/displ...ry_id=12706967

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by First Lady

You don't think Dion will make a move to activate his carbon plan?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...er-carbon.html

Depends... if its a fair cap and trade system with the US, its probably not so bad because you aren't creating an uneven playing field.

If its Dion and May having their policy love child released on Canada alone, that would essentially be NEP2 and my previous comments on that stand.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

You don't think the CPC already did?

Last Friday's issue of The Economist


http://www.economist.com/world/displ...ry_id=12706967

Touche.

Any idea of the dollar value attached to that program?

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Depends... if its a fair cap and trade system with the US, its probably not so bad because you aren't creating an uneven playing field.

If its Dion and May having their policy love child released on Canada alone, that would essentially be NEP2 and my previous comments on that stand.

Yes, I agree. Letting them loose on Canada could be very damaging.
1980's all over again.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You must be new to political threads, four-by. That's Ronald's MO.

Just sick of arguing with people that tell me that paper is evil because paper is responsible for paper cuts. Can't be bothered to discuss the fact that we're talking about the constitution that is written on the paper.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by First Lady

Touche.

Any idea of the dollar value attached to that program?

None. I just got my issue tonight and was more than a little surprised to see that item. I haven't seen any details, and am not surprised it hasn't gotten any press with all that is going on.

It does, however, make Dion out to be an even bigger ###### than I realized (since this type of thing should be his wet dream).

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Just sick of arguing with people that tell me that paper is evil because paper is responsible for paper cuts. Can't be bothered to discuss the fact that we're talking about the constitution that is written on the paper.

Take a deeeep breath.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

None. I just got my issue tonight and was more than a little surprised to see that item. I haven't seen any details, and am not surprised it hasn't gotten any press with all that is going on.

It does, however, make Dion out to be an even bigger ###### than I realized (since this type of thing should be his wet dream).

True, added to that, the fact Harper backed down on the other 2 issues.... why are they going the coalition route anyway??? Bizarre.