Coalition Deal To Topple Minority Tory Govt- [Update Parliament Prorogued until Jan]

[Draug]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

The thing that I really hate the most about this right now, and what makes this IMO un-democratic, is the Bloc's plan to keep the government afloat unconditionally until 2010. That CANNOT sit well with the GG. I hope to hell she sees past this Liberal reach-around and calls an election.

When do we hear from her?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

So, what you're saying is, you'd like to see the GG call another election?

Fine by me.

But the fact remains, our system allows for exactly what is going on right now. And for all the criticisms of our democratic system, what is happening now is exactly what goes on all the time in those systems which are arguably the most democratic: systems of proportional representation. So our democracy isn't reallly failing here - although we might not be able to say that after the GG acts, regardless of what she does, since she's outside of our democracy.

The system allows for this if confidence in the government has been lost.

In this case, since there hasn't been a budget and really there hasn't been much sitting time since the last election, I'd say it is safe to say there was never any confidence in the government to start with. Right from day 1 after the election, the plans for this were set in motion.

If this was to have happened after 6 months, then fine... but right away after the election? Totally different situation.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by transplant99

So what...received more than the Liberals who are now sitting in the PM chair. (Or will be)


Doesnt make it OK nor the right thing to do either.

That's correct: under our system Harper became PM as the leader of the party with the most seats among each of the parties. And under our system he can be replaced as PM if a coalition forms such that the coalition has the most seats among the parties.

And I never said I though it was the right thing to do. That's totally debatable.

[Devils'Advocate]

Are you guys proposing that we have an election every Thursday until there is a majority? Because right now all indications are that this country is going to elect minority governments for the foreseeable future.

[J pold]

I can't believe this and what's worse is that I feel totally helpless, the thought of Stephan Dion as our PM is utterly disturbing.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Are you guys proposing that we have an election every Thursday until there is a majority? Because right now all indications are that this country is going to elect minority governments for the foreseeable future.

Incorrect. If there's an election in January, there will be a majority.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Draug

When do we hear from her?

If Harper goes to the government and asks for a prorogue, we'll hear from her, either allowing or denying that. Either way, she won't have any sort of decision about Dion's filing until a confidence motion is defeated, either on the eighth, or in the new year if Harper's successful in getting a prorogue.

At that point, Harper will go to her, tell her that he is unable to function as leader of parliament, and probably ask her to call an election. At that point, she'll formally consider the options and either announce an election or invite Dion to form a government.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Are you guys proposing that we have an election every Thursday until there is a majority? Because right now all indications are that this country is going to elect minority governments for the foreseeable future.

I'm proposing that the opposition respect the will of Canadians and at least try to make government work. The fact that the fringes of the political spectrum were plotting to overthrow the government pretty much from the moment the results were calculated should be greatly disturbing, even to someone as left leaning as you are, DA.

The Bloc and NDP do not have a mandate to govern Canada.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by calculoso

The system allows for this if confidence in the government has been lost.

In this case, since there hasn't been a budget and really there hasn't been much sitting time since the last election, I'd say it is safe to say there was never any confidence in the government to start with. Right from day 1 after the election, the plans for this were set in motion.

If this was to have happened after 6 months, then fine... but right away after the election? Totally different situation.

And that's where it gets interesting from my perspective.

I think it's entirely probable that all of the parties foresaw a Conservative minority well in advance of the last election. I think it's also entirely probably that the non-Conservative parties were in discussions with each other during the last Conservative minority. I think it's entirely possible that this coalition was viewed by its member parties as being inevitable, and that they merely needed a window of opportunity to jump through. That window opened when Harper made some rather controversial proposals, including one which was a naked slap in the face to the other parties.

I think, at the very least, Harper's proposal to cut political funding was incredibly badly thought-out, and deserved an extremely harsh response. I didn't think this snowball had that much momentum though.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Incorrect. If there's an election in January, there will be a majority.

You seriously think Harper can win a majority government? The Liberals gave him a breakaway and he Kobasewed it. They let him run against the 3rd best leader in their party and he couldn't come close to a Majority.

Maybe if he stepped down and took all the former Reform guys with him, they may have a chance. Not only that, the Liberals would have to re-lect another Dion type leader.

[FlamesAddiction]

If they do call another election, I hope they do more to get more people to vote, even if it means enabling their laziness by making it even easier.

Part of the reason the system is failing us is because not enough people care, or they have lost faith in the system. With a 20% higher turnout, there stands a good chance that we would have had some kind of majority and this whole mess wouldn't have happened.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Did somebody call the...

?

Seriously though. I know that we all think AB gets the brown end of the stick but to say that Alberta is ruined by the new coalition and blah blah is just baseless and fear-mongering.

The party we support(ed) lost power. That sucks. But I mean some of the prognostications bandied about here are just flat out insane.

Is this supposed to be funny, hilariously ironic. Its clear that you respect no one else position in this debate and decided to post a stupid and childish picture basically giving the middle finger to anyone that disagrees with you.

Your not worth it, I might as well put you on my ignore list which is sad because you'll be the first.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

I think, at the very least, Harper's proposal to cut political funding was incredibly badly thought-out, and deserved an extremely harsh response. I didn't think this snowball had that much momentum though.

Well, putting aside the fact that I don't see any problems in making all political parties pull their own weight, it does need to be reiterated that the opposition is completely screwed if this coalition falls apart. 33 million pissed off Canadians heading to the polls because Dion and Layton wanted to ensure that Joe Canadian has to fund their parties, and brought down the government as a result?

It would require a spectacular campaign to overcome that.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Are you guys proposing that we have an election every Thursday until there is a majority? Because right now all indications are that this country is going to elect minority governments for the foreseeable future.

I propose there should be an election at the end of January and the NDP/Liberals/Bloc run a campaign based on creating a coalition, since I watched their leaders sit in front of the flags of all provinces and territories this afternoon and proclaim " it is in the best interests of Canada" that they do so.

Let the chips fall where they may after that. And should Harper fail to get a majority, he shoudl agree to resign and go to the backbench.

[Jade]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

And that's where it gets interesting from my perspective.

I think it's entirely probable that all of the parties foresaw a Conservative minority well in advance of the last election. I think it's also entirely probably that the non-Conservative parties were in discussions with each other during the last Conservative minority. I think it's entirely possible that this coalition was viewed by its member parties as being inevitable, and that they merely needed a window of opportunity to jump through. That window opened when Harper made some rather controversial proposals, including one which was a naked slap in the face to the other parties.

I think, at the very least, Harper's proposal to cut political funding was incredibly badly thought-out, and deserved an extremely harsh response. I didn't think this snowball had that much momentum though.

And yet none of them mentioned in during their campaigns. Interesting. So then are you supporting them having blatantly lied to voters during the campaign?

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

You seriously think Harper can win a majority government? The Liberals gave him a breakaway and he Kobasewed it. They let him run against the 3rd best leader in their party and he couldn't come close to a Majority.

Maybe if he stepped down and took all the former Reform guys with him, they may have a chance.

It's also going to be interesting how the Liberals and NDP work together going into election, if it comes to that. If they continue the coalition and agree to attempt to avoid vote-splitting by not running against one-another in currently Tory ridings, that could have a huge effect. Even if you account for some lost support as a result of this coalition, that effect would be more than compensated for by such an alliance. It's more likely that they won't have such a formal alliance, but it's got to be something they consider.

[transplant99]

With a 20% higher turnout, there stands a good chance that we would have had some kind of majority

Why would you say that...are those 20% all going to vote one way or the other, but along the same party lines?

I dont get this.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Jade

And yet none of them mentioned in during their campaigns. Interesting. So then are you supporting them having blatantly lied to voters during the campaign?

Not only that...Dion openly campaigned AGAINST any coalition deal with the NDP...until he got smashed by the Cons.

A bald faced, two-faced liar is now seeking the countries highest office through backdoor channels. How that doesnt bother even the most ARDENT Liberal is mind-boggling to me.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, putting aside the fact that I don't see any problems in making all political parties pull their own weight, it does need to be reiterated that the opposition is completely screwed if this coalition falls apart. 33 million pissed off Canadians heading to the polls because Dion and Layton wanted to ensure that Joe Canadian has to fund their parties, and brought down the government as a result?

It would require a spectacular campaign to overcome that.

I'm not sure it would be as bad as many people think. I imagine that's the prevailing opinion in blue-soaked Alberta, but don't forget that the Conservatives have not yet earned the trust of the rest of the country: how else to you explain their failure to earn a majority when their main opposition was so clearly floundering?

A lot of people will still vote for the Liberals because (1) Harper's attack on political financing is exactly the type of neo-con assault on democracy that they always worried he'd carry into effect with a majority, and Harper just confirmed their fears, and (2) as I stated before, there is the potential here for the re-emergence of the Liberals under a new leader, with a new "willing to stand up to Harper" image.

Of course, on the other hand, you could be right.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Jade

And yet none of them mentioned in during their campaigns. Interesting. So then are you supporting them having blatantly lied to voters during the campaign?

If they never said it, they didn't lie about it.

And given the way the coalition only seems to just now be falling into place, there wouldn't have been anything for them to say anyway. Politicians of different parties work with and against each other behind the scenes all the time. It's called politics. But they usually only come out and say what they've been working on when the work is done.

Plus, they could hardly come out with a coalition until they knew the results of the new election. Campaigning on a platform of "we know Harper's going to win anyway" would have been a bit defeatist don't you think?