Coalition Deal To Topple Minority Tory Govt- [Update Parliament Prorogued until Jan]

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by ikaris

Well then maybe you can explain this to me. How exactly will this coalition government screw Alberta when considering the current economic conditions?

It doesn't take a genius to realize where the billions that flow into Quebec and Ontario will be coming from.

The have provinces.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

So, out of the USA, Britain, the EU, and Canada... Canada is the only one being smart by waiting before laying out a plan? Again, I emphasize the word "PLAN". I am not saying that they need to have implemented it yet... It's such a simple thing, and yet they refuse to do it. If after consulting with the G20 and they feel the need to revamp their plan, then fine. People just want to know in specifics what they hope to do when the time comes.

That's what's frustrating to me about the whole thing. The Conservatives could have avoided it so easily.... and hopefully they still can. They felt way too secure with their minority government.

I actually like Harper as the best of a bad bunch.

Out of Detroit, Edmonton, Vancouver, and Dallas, who needs to change the least? Sure Detroit still has a plan, but it also involves a lot of "steady as she goes".

Canada does not have the same banking woes as other countries / unions in the world. Canada's economy is not as bad as some of these others either. Does that mean that Canada is not affected? Of course not, but it allows the government to be in the position where they can afford to wait a bit longer, until the entire scope of the economic problems is more fully known, and then react accordingly.

Consider:
(a) we're going to spend $30 Billion.. on what? I dunno, we'll see.
vs
(b) We're going to spend as we need to, but the amount is as-of-yet undetermined.

Is there much of a difference, especially if the $30 Billion is only $5B or grows to $100B?

This whole "for pete's sake do something" mentality just doesn't wash.

[Cheese]

Opinions other than CalPucks on this scenario

rabble babble

MapleLeafweb

CanadianContent

Same junk...opinions all over the spectrum.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ikaris

Well then maybe you can explain this to me. How exactly will this coalition government screw Alberta when considering the current economic conditions?

Its very simple. History tells me as much.

Alberta and Saskatchewan are the two "have" provinces right now...and by quite a margin over Quebec. Right there is a reason for huge concern as the transfer payments that ALberta alone already makes are pretty much what Quebec receives. Now Duceppe holds a MASSIVE hammer over the heads of the so called leaders of this coup. Simply he says to Dion or whatever unelected person replaces him, I want at least 1 billion more dollars in transer payments this year, or i pull back my support of your coalition. Layton and Dion have no choice but to aquiece to his demands should they want to retain the power they have just back-doored.

So Layton and Dion look West for that money as they certainly are not going to take from Ontario as that is where what little support they do have federally mostly comes from. Unless you believe they are going to cripple a province that is the only reason they have a seat to begin with, there is no where else to go for said favor for Duceppe.

Layton and Dion have already committed to spending 30 BILLION dollars to some unknown stimulus package...again, where do you think they will be getting that money from? That's more money than even the USA is proposing to bail out their auto industry just for a point of reference.

Then of course the NEP debacle enacted by Trudeau who was never as far left as Layton. It worked to prop up Ontario and Quebec then, and I have little doubt that all of Duceppe, Layton AND Dion all believe that it could work again, especially when collectively they have 21 seats West of Ontario.

Add all that up and logically tell me where they are going to be looking at for all this money they plan to spend...which is why they undertook this coup to begin with by their own words this afternoon. As clearly they didnt think Harper and his elected mandate were going fast enough or spending enough money.

Logic.....it works.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Tell me all the other times that this has happened in Canadian political history. Please.

You know what "power" the Liberals earned? Lowest popular vote in their existance...spin it any way that lets you sleep at night, but to say anything else is completely partisan on your part.

You know what "power" the Conservatives earned? Less than a majority under our democratic system... spin it any way that lets you sleep at night, but to say anything else ignores the absolute bare truth.

The problem with majority governments is that they can abuse their power. The problem with minority governments is that they have to cooperate with others to function effectively. The Libs got turfed for abusing their power. It would be poetic if the Conservatives got turfed for failing to play nice with others.

I'm not saying that's the best thing for Canada at this moment, but it's not dirty pool if it's in the rules.

[C_Rush]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction;1540405

That's what's frustrating to me about the whole thing. [B

The Conservatives could have avoided it so easily[/B].... and hopefully they still can. They felt way too secure with their minority government.

I actually like Harper as the best of a bad bunch.

Not really. The coalition has already admitted the groundwork was in place, they were merely waiting for a confidence issue that would allow them to act. Short of Harper giving them the keys to the treasury, this was already in the process of going down.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

The problem with majority governments is that they can abuse their power. The problem with minority governments is that they have to cooperate with others to function effectively. The Libs got turfed for abusing their power. It would be poetic if the Conservatives got turfed for failing to play nice with others.

If the Conservatives got turfed, it should be by Canadians, not those elected by Canadians. Let the people speak.

[C_Rush]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

I'm not saying that's the best thing for Canada at this moment, but it's not dirty pool if it's in the rules.

It is dirty pool if a man who was resoundingly rejected by voters as Prime Minister can be elevated to the position by a coup. Voters said no to Dion as PM, spin it any way you want, and he is now poised to become PM which is a direct contravention of the will of Canadian voters.

[transplant99]

Six provinces to receive over $13.6 billion in Equalization payments in 2008-09

N.L.

P.E.I.

N.S.

N.B.

Que.

Man.

TOTAL

($ millions)

Equalization

158
322
1,465
1,584
8,028
2,063
13,620

Accord Offsets

742

106



848

Total

899
322
1,571
1,584
8,028
2,063
14,468

$ Per capita1

1,781

2,310

1,679

2,111

1,038

1,732

http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html


now what happens when inevitably, Duceppe says...i want more or you fall? Where's it gonna come from?

[Ronald Pagan]

Did somebody call the...

?

Seriously though. I know that we all think AB gets the brown end of the stick but to say that Alberta is ruined by the new coalition and blah blah is just baseless and fear-mongering.

The party we support(ed) lost power. That sucks. But I mean some of the prognostications bandied about here are just flat out insane.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It doesn't take a genius to realize where the billions that flow into Quebec and Ontario will be coming from.

The have province.

fixed.

[octothorp]

Meh. Duceppe's clout in this coalition is vastly overrated. There's no conspiracy here, his reasons for supporting it are simple: he dodged a huge bullet in the last federal election, as most polls had him way down as much as a week before the vote; his party is close to bankrupt and needs time to refill the coffers before another election; a Conservative majority may reintroduce the idea of cancelling public funding of political parties; traditional Bloc supporters are starting to question the point of constantly supporting the ultimate outsider party. All of these things mean that it's in his best interests to play ball with coalition and bide his time. Holding the coalition hostage for his own pet interests just doesn't do him any good right now.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by C_Rush

Not really. The coalition has already admitted the groundwork was in place, they were merely waiting for a confidence issue that would allow them to act. Short of Harper giving them the keys to the treasury, this was already in the process of going down.

Until this point, the groundwork for a coalition was a contingency plan. If Harper played his cards differently, it wouldn't be an issue. He gambled and lost at a time his that his mandate is weak... which is too bad, because this country could use 4 or 5 years of stability. A little less smugness and an olive branch would have went a long way I think.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by calculoso

If the Conservatives got turfed, it should be by Canadians, not those elected by Canadians. Let the people speak.

So, what you're saying is, you'd like to see the GG call another election?

Fine by me.

But the fact remains, our system allows for exactly what is going on right now. And for all the criticisms of our democratic system, what is happening now is exactly what goes on all the time in those systems which are arguably the most democratic: systems of proportional representation. So our democracy isn't reallly failing here - although we might not be able to say that after the GG acts, regardless of what she does, since she's outside of our democracy.

[transplant99]

You know what "power" the Conservatives earned? Less than a majority under our democratic system

So what...received more than the Liberals who are now sitting in the PM chair. (Or will be)

they just got turfed by a group unelected to govern. Period. indisputable.

It would really be "poetic" if they allowed the elcorate to make this decision and not a bunch of scumbag backdoor power mongers.




I'm not saying that's the best thing for Canada at this moment, but it's not dirty pool if it's in the rules.

Doesnt make it OK nor the right thing to do either.

[transplant99]

Seriously though. I know that we all think AB gets the brown end of the stick but to say that Alberta is ruined by the new coalition and blah blah is just baseless and fear-mongering.

The party we support(ed) lost power. That sucks. But I mean some of the prognostications bandied about here are just flat out insane.

Then show that and quit being a condescending ass. There is no fear-mongering here. This movie has played once before when it came to blatent grabs from Ottawa....the ending was gory.

[metallicat]

The thing that I really hate the most about this right now, and what makes this IMO un-democratic, is the Bloc's plan to keep the government afloat unconditionally until 2010. That CANNOT sit well with the GG. I hope to hell she sees past this Liberal reach-around and calls an election.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by C_Rush

It is dirty pool if a man who was resoundingly rejected by voters as Prime Minister can be elevated to the position by a coup. Voters said no to Dion as PM, spin it any way you want, and he is now poised to become PM which is a direct contravention of the will of Canadian voters.

When it comes right down to it, ALL of them were rejected by the majority to become PM. Of course, Harper was rejected by fewer, but he still only got something like 40% of the popular vote.

Really, this is a separate issue completely. Perhaps Canada should establish a republic.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by C_Rush

It is dirty pool if a man who was resoundingly rejected by voters as Prime Minister can be elevated to the position by a coup. Voters said no to Dion as PM, spin it any way you want, and he is now poised to become PM which is a direct contravention of the will of Canadian voters.

This is getting circular...

The majority of voters rejected Harper as Prime Minister. He was only PM because of the way our system works. It also happens that, because of the way our system works, coalitions can form which can oust him as PM.

I'm not saying what's happening is right or wrong in making this argument, just that the system is built for this to happen. If I were going to spin this I'd say that Harper is just the least unpopular of a bunch of losers - guys who couldn't lead their parties to be the favourite of even half the people in this country.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by arsenal

fixed.

Heh, Four years ago, I would have agreed, but with Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia moving into the have status, and the USSR pretty much selling oil producers out to prop up manufacturing, it would be disingenuous to state we're going to shoulder the burden alone.

But regardless of how many cheeky photos Ronald posts, our dollars are going to be flowing into central Canada and not coming back out.