Epid ends in suicide

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Dion

Death became the solution as that was the only thought that took away the emotional pain. After i swallowed those pills i felt such a wonderful sense of peace - one that i've never felt before - as i knew it would soon be over. Rational minded people don't do this!

Sorry, here is the flaw. They do, and they have since the beginning of time.

Monothesitic religion and modern medicine have made death a bad thing. But in a world of cycles, death is just part of that. And wiser philsophies have embraced this since the beginning of time.

Take the BAD of of death. And it's an entirely different question.

People have commit suicide to end their own pain, to end their families pain, to save the village, the tribe, etc.

Death is natural. And if this is the way it happens, then this is the way it happens.

It has happened rationally many times. You're culture has convinced you it's not rational.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Daradon

You're culture has convinced you it's not rational.

It is not rational for a teenager to kill himself on the internet in our culture. It is clearly irrational.

As for "wiser philosophies", please expand on that. Far as I can tell, this kid's cycle is over. He's dead.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

How come no one has commented on my point that there have been people on this website that get repeatedly picked on by grown adults?

Well it's not really what the thread is about.

Certainly we take anyone who attacks someone seriously, and have banned posters for just that reason. But if you see something like that happening you should be reporting it so we can deal with it.

[PIMking]

My Father died a week before my 17th birthday and my nephew died in a house fire 3 days after my birthday. I was a total wreck. I didnt sleep and actuall spent a night in jail for beating up a friend of my fathers visiting my mom early in the morning. I was so depressed and thought someone was breaking into my house while I finally fell asleep. I busted him up pretty bad and got some counsouling (sp) while in the holding cell over night by some drunk that was in there.

I would never kill myself I think its a total selfish thing. There are only a few things worth dying for in life. 1) family. You intend to hurt my family you better plan on taking me out. 2) country. Im proud of my country and I am willing to defend it with my life.

I cant belive how some people are thinking that was funny.

It sad and the guy obviously needed some help.

There is a part of my emoitions that are really sad because I have been in the depths of that type of pain and was thinking of going down that path until I beat up a family friend in a fit or rage and an angel dressed as a crook in jail talked some sense into me.

There is also a part of me that thinks the guy is selfish for taking the high road and not taking it like a man and fighting thru it. Im so torn on the situation.

God Speed.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

It is not rational for a teenager to kill himself on the internet in our culture. It is clearly irrational.

As for "wiser philosophies", please expand on that. Far as I can tell, this kid's cycle is over. He's dead.

And yet everything else goes on.

If you see death as 'an end', then you cannot believe in cycles and can't throw that back in my face.

Cycles don't end. There is no such thing as 'his cycle is over'. Thats what a cycle is. It repeats. And everything we see in nature and science tends to agree with this. Something ends, something else begins, all connected. If you don't agree fine. But don't muddy things up by being contradictory. Either you agree or disagree.

As far as 'teenagers don't rationally kill themselves on the internet in our culture'? Wow, where to begin?

Well I guess, since the internet has been around for SOOOO LONG, I'm sure we have a bunch of data to show what is predictable emotional behavior when related to the internet.

In fact, lets take it a step further. A teenager in society. I think a lot of psychologists and psychiatrists would tell you, while there is a lot of work done on developing minds, we are nowhere near the level of science that can determine 'normal' for teenagers. That in fact their hormones and stress, make their behavior very abnormal to the rest of us.

Shoot, they only did reliable bully study/prevention over the last 5 years, which is what this clearly is.



Lastly, as far as 'wise philosophies', I would recommend anything that doesn't vilify death. Most modern religions, and therefore modern mindsets do. Without even knowing it.

'Death is something to be postponed to the very limits of human endurance and happiness.'

What? Why? Even if nothing happens after, why make yourself unhappy to prolong the inevitable? You're only making more unhappiness.

And if there is a transition, why delay it for suffering?

For all the scientific and logical people on this board, they seem to have missed this big one.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by PIMking

My Father died a week before my 17th birthday and my nephew died in a house fire 3 days after my birthday. I was a total wreck. I didnt sleep and actuall spent a night in jail for beating up a friend of my fathers visiting my mom early in the morning. I was so depressed and thought someone was breaking into my house while I finally fell asleep. I busted him up pretty bad and got some counsouling (sp) while in the holding cell over night by some drunk that was in there.

I would never kill myself I think its a total selfish thing. There are only a few things worth dying for in life. 1) family. You intend to hurt my family you better plan on taking me out. 2) country. Im proud of my country and I am willing to defend it with my life.

I cant belive how some people are thinking that was funny.

It sad and the guy obviously needed some help.

There is a part of my emoitions that are really sad because I have been in the depths of that type of pain and was thinking of going down that path until I beat up a family friend in a fit or rage and an angel dressed as a crook in jail talked some sense into me.

There is also a part of me that thinks the guy is selfish for taking the high road and not taking it like a man and fighting thru it. Im so torn on the situation.

God Speed.

Agree.

Sorry for your losses.

EDIT: It's so tough for everyone. But ultimately, for better or worse, it's out of your hands.

If you did your best to help, that's more than many people.

It's not good or bad. It's not 'not taking like a man' or 'having no decision'.

It's somewhere in the middle. And ultimately their responsibility.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Your talk puts you outside of control.

Like AA says 'this problem is out of my control'. 'I cannot help myself I must completely stay away'.

I do know. I was at the brink, and yeah, I had no logic. I will agree with that.

My own emotion pulled me out. Not my logic.

If you want to look at it that way, that's fine with me.

Did you actually committ the act or were you thinking about it? There's a huge difference between thinking and doing it. Those that are thinking still believe there are options and choose life. There's still light at the end of the tunnel. It's when that tunnel loses that light and the dark hole becomes all encompasing, all sense of rational goes out the window as the emotional pain takes complete control.

There is no reason to get defensive because I've said right from the start two things.

1. People with depression should be understood and should be helped. It's a serious problem.

2. It's not a bad thing.

You're defensive cause you see that end as a bad thing. I do not. I see it as a decision which is up to the individual or a mistake up to the individual.

I take offence when someone tells me what i did was a choice. It took years of soul searching and talking with professionals to come to that conclusion. Anyone who has survived a suicide attempt will tell you later they didn't want to kill themselves. I also thought i made my feelings quite clear on the matter. If you still choose to believe it was my choice then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't see the end as a bad thing. I've never felt guilty about what i did as it was not me that swallowed those pills.

If I knew you in your moment of need, you can bet I would have done everything I could to help you and make sure you weren't alone.

However if you did commit suicide, I would have said at your funeral. This was Dion, he was my friend. He was a great person and I will miss him. But I respect what he did.

Those were the feelings i had when a HS chum comitted suicide. It wasn't his choice and that made me sad as i knew he loved people and life.

If you want to tell me that something outside of yourself saved you, than I have to ask, what was it? Because ultimately, even if one is 'foiled', they find a way.

So if you didn't save yourself in some way, what did?

Family and some time in a psychiatric ward saved me.

[Daradon]

PMed out of respect to both of us, this thread, and the one who died.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Daradon

And yet everything else goes on.

If you see death as 'an end', then you cannot believe in cycles and can't throw that back in my face.

I'm not throwing anything back in your face. This kid is dead. Okay, something else begins. That's nice. What is it? What has begun?

Don't muddy it up by being vague.

Originally Posted by Daradon

As far as 'teenagers don't rationally kill themselves on the internet in our culture'? Wow, where to begin?

Well I guess, since the internet has been around for SOOOO LONG, I'm sure we have a bunch of data to show what is predictable emotional behavior when related to the internet.

I don't need much data to tell me that a teenager taking a bunch of pills in the hopes of killing himself is acting rationally. Of course he's not. He's sick and his disease is making him act irrationally.

Originally Posted by Daradon

Lastly, as far as 'wise philosophies', I would recommend anything that doesn't vilify death. Most modern religions, and therefore modern mindsets do. Without even knowing it.

Okay, which wise philosophy?

I don't have a religion.

I'm not really one to "villify death" as a general rule. I'm pretty sour on the idea of teenagers killing themselves for just about any reason though. I don't know if I'm particularly interested in a philosophy that would change my mind on that subject, but I'll give it a whirl.

Originally Posted by Daradon

'Death is something to be postponed to the very limits of human endurance and happiness.'

What? Why? Even if nothing happens after, why make yourself unhappy to prolong the inevitable? You're only making more unhappiness.

And if there is a transition, why delay it for suffering?

For all the scientific and logical people on this board, they seem to have missed this big one.

Missed what "big one"? Who here has ever said "death is something to be postoponed to the very limits of human endurance and happiness"?

I don't believe that. I also don't believe that what this kid did to himself is part of the natural order of things. It could have been prevented, someone could have helped him out, and he could have live 80 more years as a good human being.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not throwing anything back in your face. This kid is dead. Okay, something else begins. That's nice. What is it? What has begun?

Don't muddy it up by being vague.




I don't need much data to tell me that a teenager taking a bunch of pills in the hopes of killing himself is acting rationally. Of course he's not. He's sick and his disease is making him act irrationally.




Okay, which wise philosophy?

I don't have a religion.

I'm not really one to "villify death" as a general rule. I'm pretty sour on the idea of teenagers killing themselves for just about any reason though. I don't know if I'm particularly interested in a philosophy that would change my mind on that subject, but I'll give it a whirl.



Missed what "big one"? Who here has ever said "death is something to be postoponed to the very limits of human endurance and happiness"?

I don't believe that. I also don't believe that what this kid did to himself is part of the natural order of things. It could have been prevented, someone could have helped him out, and he could have live 80 more years as a good human being.

To answer your last comment first, I have said since the beginning what the board did was despicable and I have also said that I wished someone had been there to help him.

I do take it seriously.

I just can't be upset about it.

Being upset about suicide is so voyeuristic and rubbernecking. We all want to say its so tragic, but in a world of 6.5 billion where we fight to survive and so many people have been through worse (and yes depressed people also live in third world countries) it just doesn't add up to a tragedy.

Someone could have done something you say.

Yeah, so could have he.

In your world everyone is pointing fingers. The world is pointing at him, and he and his 'appalled supporters' are pointing them back.

Who is right? Who is wrong?

Exactly, no one is. Even him. They ALL could have done better. Even him. He needed help. But he also needed to help himself.

My world doesn't point fingers. Doesn't lay blame.

It's a decision. Good, bad, or misguided.

When you label it as bad, and label all suicide as unnatural, you point fingers. Either at the victim or at society.

Isn't it MOST RATIONAL to believe people just make decisions?

And before you get mad at that, go back to my first point. Please.

[Daradon]

And if you don't think our world doesn't think death is unnatural I direct you to the People vs. Terri Schaivo.

And the tens of thousands of instances less sensational than that.

Modern medicine makes death unnatural and unwelcome.

Fine if you don't believe in religion or god, doesn't change my argument.

And no I'm not introducing assisted suicide into that matter (though really it is) all I'm saying is our viewpoints on death have been skewed by our religion and our science.

Death is normal. Prolonging it (whether at 17 or 87) is not.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Daradon

When you label it as bad, and label all suicide as unnatural, you point fingers. Either at the victim or at society.

That's two times in a row you've given me something to say and then argued against it.

This little discussion started with you saying "you're culture has convinced you it's not rational". Fine. My culture has convinced me that a kid taking a lot of drugs and intentionally killing himself is not rational. I'm convinced. Am I wrong? Is my culture wrong to convince me of this?

Your references to "wiser philosophies" haven't lead anywhere. You haven't named these wiser philosophies or explained why my conclusion is wrong.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Death is normal. Prolonging it (whether at 17 or 87) is not.

Prolonging the life of a (I'm assuming here) physically healthy teenager is normal. Recognizing that it's a sad thing that he died is normal.

Terri Schiavo has nothing to do with this. This appears to be a regular kid that could have been helped. He wasn't a brain dead person in a coma for X number of years with no hope of recovery.

[Daradon]

All I'm saying is our society preaches that death is unnatural and unwelcome. I gave an extreme example. But you can find them everywhere.

Products to make you look younger.

Product to take years off your life.

Treatments that cost thousands to keep you alive (at the detriment to your family and society)

Heck we even keep our pets alive beyond natural bounds now. And people freeze them to bring them back.

All I said was death is natural, and when you TRULY accept that, it opens a whole new argument to the suicide debate.

I never said this one wasn't natural. I in fact (for the 5th time) said it was preventable and perhaps regretable.

But I said it was his choice. And I said I couldn't be sad about it. And I doubt, wherever he is (if anywhere) he'd want us to be.

And if he can't feel, cause there is nothing, well then doesn't that prove it more than anything?

[OilersBaby]

Wow, I was really busy today and didn't get to read anything about this whole issue until right now. Very sad that people were taunting him. I'm pretty sure that this suicide was decided before the others egged him on, but as someone else mentioned, if someone had reached out to him and said some kind words, maybe it could have been prevented.

I can admit that although I've never been suicidal, there have been a couple of REALLY hard times that I've come onto CP and mentioned that I was down or sad in a post that had nothing to do with feeling sad or down and someone has reached out to me by either a reply or a private message, and I have felt much better. For example, just yesterday or the day before, on the CP Confessionals thread, I posted something about how I regretted telling my dad I hated him as a teenager when he didn't allow me to do something (typical teenaged punk I was)..and now that he's dying of cancer, I felt awful. I immediately recieved a private message from a couple of you and the words you said made me feel much better. I know its not the same as me stating I wanted to committ suicide, but I felt VERY sad to the point where I couldn't read or breathe because I was crying so much when I typed my post. I felt really really down and I promise I wasn't suicidal but thoughts like "what's the point of living as a good person when at the end, you're going to die anyways like my dad who's not even 60 years old yet and is the nicest, most honest man I have ever met in my entire life?" crossed my mind. I was just very distraught.

Sorry for blabbing, my point is that I wish that someone would have reached out to this Candy Junkie guy instead of doubting it and making fun of him. I worked for a suicide prevention hotline when I went to the U of A years ago, and the first thing we were taught is that even if someone jokes about the subject of suicide, someone should do something to help them make sure its not carried out......

I know that on a high quality forum as CP, if I sat here and created a thread about suicide or severe depression, someone would help me. As dorky as it sounds, we are a true community here and that's why I have always enjoyed posting here. Thanks y'all.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by OilersBaby

I know that on a high quality forum as CP, if I sat here and created a thread about suicide or severe depression, someone would help me. As dorky as it sounds, we are a true community here and that's why I have always enjoyed posting here. Thanks y'all.

Bingo!

Again most of us care. And we would even care for those messed up Oilfans! We first of all wouldn't be dicks, and second of all would try to help.

But after that, what else is there? Am I going to be sad about this person? Wring my hands? Spout off how no one (in 6.5 billion) seems to know?

Or am I going to care about those that ARE still going on.

I respect ones decision or mistake. Whether they felt their chemicals MADE them do it or not.

[OilersBaby]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Bingo!

Again most of us care. And we would even care for those messed up Oilfans! We first of all wouldn't be dicks, and second of all would try to help.

But after that, what else is there? Am I going to be sad about this person? Wring my hands? Spout off how no one (in 6.5 billion) seems to know?

Or am I going to care about those that ARE still going on.

I respect ones decision or mistake. Whether they felt their chemicals MADE them do it or not.

Well lets say that you were one of those other posters on the forum where this guy died...would you be sad afterwards that you didn't take him seriously and do anything about it in time? I would. I think it would bother me that I didn't do anything...but me personally right now, I don't really feel sad on a personal level because there was nothing I could do to prevent his death, I had nothing to do with it and couldnt have helped him in anyway because I wasn't on that website. Sad situations happen everyday to people..I read stories about people being shot, robbed, raped etc since my husband is a prosecutor. Innocent people die. But I can't get sad everytime I read about it. But if I was there and could have at least tried to prevent something from happening, I would be really sad and would feel guilty that I didnt at least try.

[Daradon]

But that wouldn't have been me.

I WOULD have taken him seriously.

So I can't answer that, and my philosophy still fits.

Sometimes what ifs make no sense or are outright impossible. In this case it is.

If I was there for that thread I would have (a) seen if he needed help, wanted to talk, needed intervention (forced help or intervention) etc depending on the time of the situation. And (b) told the others to back the $@#% off!

[Daradon]

Lastly, he did not get raped or murdered (or maybe he did get raped, just not in this instance). He pulled his own trigger. He was not run over by a car, struck down by cancer, or the host of other things. Ultimately his own hand did him in. Whether one wants to point at the people around him, the chemicals in his brain or anything else. Yeah it sucks, but it was ultimately his responsibility. No one forced him to do that. And if people say the chemicals forced him, then we might as well write off alcoholism, addiction, pedophilia, sociopath(ism?) etc.

Ultimately the buck stops somewhere. Or really, we're all diseased. Some more than others, but ultimately ALL of us.

[stang]

Originally Posted by Flash

I think it was meant to say "epic" in the first thread started by Stang with the pictures of the girl and the car..from that, I think he just carried the "epid" theme to this thread because they came from the same body builders forum. I could be wrong though.

Originally Posted by Daradon

The first thread here, about the BB thread which turned into the thread in question was EPIC.

But (Stang I think?) misspelled and made it EPID THREAD!!!

And was deservingly PWNED.

I never started the epid thread... I just added to it exploiting the Epid name.