Marxist-Leninist

[Phanuthier]

Azure ... I give up. I think you are too fixed into your western opinion, and you still haven't answered my question after I asked twice.

peter ... interesting post. I know its hard to get Scandinavian citizenship, but what laws in place in Scandinavia that make it so much different then Canada or USA to gain citizenship?

And to your post about socialism only working in small economics, but not large. What exactly is it about socialsm that works only for small economies of scale, but become inefficient as output (ie. population) increases?

As for efficiency ... again, being in the high-tech industry, I find your comment ironic. Its capitalism that has driven work to be outsourced to China, India and Latin America. We all know about Adidas, Nike, clothes, binders and toys being outsourced to China; the majority of IT has been outsourced to India; but whats little known is even the high-tech industry isn't even int he US either, neither of Intel's or Microsofts hardware production even happens in the USA, they were outsourced to Mexico and Costa Rica. This constant outsourcing has shown an exponential history and trend to moving jobs out of the USA and into other emerging markets.

Short term, yes capitalism rules - competition drives productivity. Long term, I don't think it works - and thats what we're seeing here. Unstable jobs easily getting outsourced; poor education system for the strongest economic system in the world, and education is essential in a strong economy; industry crowding the center on almost everything, ie. banks so when an issues plagues one company, it plagues the system; the system of credit that runs capitalist and run rapid, as the USA becomes more of a consuming country then a producing, and debt skyrockets; and of coarse, other non-economic factors such as poor health care.

China vs India ... I agree, India has better long term prospects but not because of this democracy=better crap. India has focused more on IT then production, while China obviously is focusing on production. China should be the strength for the near future and IMO will be the world power for the near future; India's prospects are long term. Right now, India's foundation is weak while Chinas is strong, but its always easier to build an economy through production rather then IT/design. In the end though, I think it will be one complimenting the other rather then one "beating" the other - India providing the IT and soon design, China doing the production. Again, from the high-tech standpoint (the industry I know best, obviously) I think the USA will be in a dog fight to keep their knowledge and work in-house here, as 90% of the high-tech in Silicon Valley is software, not hardware, and Software is easier to outsource.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Azure ... I give up. I think you are too fixed into your western opinion, and you still haven't answered my question after I asked twice.

And I think you're too fixed on degrading western ideals because for some reason you think the US isn't any better than China.

Yes, damn me for supporting democracy, and freedom....and basic human rights. These are ALL major parts of Western Society. Of democratic society. It might not be a perfect system, but its by far the best the world has ever seen.

But I'm too 'fixed' on it?

[Phanuthier]

Azure, why do you keep dodging the question?

Have you ever been outside of North America? Where have you been in the USA, and have you spent any significant time there? Have you actually ever sat down and talked with someone who lives in a (more) socialist economy? Communist?

Your views are so ... simple, not only on this topic but many others (thinking back to the environment thread) ... I'm trying to be respectful of your views, but they seem to be very closed off as if you were someone who has never been exposed to anything else but what is going on in Canada that you just can't recognize the pros and cons or both sides.

The "best the world has ever seen" ... lol

[moon]

Have you ever been outside of North America? Where have you been in the USA, and have you spent any significant time there? Have you actually ever sat down and talked with someone who lives in a (more) socialist economy? Communist?

I am not Azure but agree with a lot of his views in the thread so I will step in here for a moment to ask you a few questions:

Have you been outside of NA?

India as a future world power??? That must be a joke.

Having not only been there but worked there, they have a long way to go to being a mediocre country that can effectively function in the world.

They are closer to collapsing then they are to being some sort of world power.

China is doing a good job of building up economic strength but are themselves far from taking over from the US and especially the Western nations if you included them as a whole.

Personally I have lived outside NA for multiple years, worked in the Middle East and Asia, spent time in the US and talked to people who have lived in Russia, Eastern Bloc countries as well as numerous Soviet Satellite states. I am not sure if that is enough to make the points valid or not but since you asked Azure about those things and I do agree with his stance on this issue I figured it may be relevant.

Personally, I am not sold on this "garbage" that China and India are some sort of future world powers. As I said earlier until they illustrate that they can function at an average level of government/economic standards I will continue to have a hard time believing that they will some how overtake the Western world at any time.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Azure, why do you keep dodging the question?

Have you ever been outside of North America? Where have you been in the USA, and have you spent any significant time there? Have you actually ever sat down and talked with someone who lives in a (more) socialist economy? Communist?

Your views are so ... simple, not only on this topic but many others (thinking back to the environment thread) ... I'm trying to be respectful of your views, but they seem to be very closed off as if you were someone who has never been exposed to anything else but what is going on in Canada that you just can't recognize the pros and cons or both sides.

The "best the world has ever seen" ... lol

There is a funny tendency among North Americans especially to try and emancipate themselves from their own culture. It's disappointing. We keep trying to escape what we know best in a fruitless search for outside knowledge. There is nothing wrong with being familiar with the familiar and knowing what is good is in itself good.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Azure ... I give up. I think you are too fixed into your western opinion, and you still haven't answered my question after I asked twice.

peter ... interesting post. I know its hard to get Scandinavian citizenship, but what laws in place in Scandinavia that make it so much different then Canada or USA to gain citizenship?

And to your post about socialism only working in small economics, but not large. What exactly is it about socialsm that works only for small economies of scale, but become inefficient as output (ie. population) increases?

As for efficiency ... again, being in the high-tech industry, I find your comment ironic. Its capitalism that has driven work to be outsourced to China, India and Latin America. We all know about Adidas, Nike, clothes, binders and toys being outsourced to China; the majority of IT has been outsourced to India; but whats little known is even the high-tech industry isn't even int he US either, neither of Intel's or Microsofts hardware production even happens in the USA, they were outsourced to Mexico and Costa Rica. This constant outsourcing has shown an exponential history and trend to moving jobs out of the USA and into other emerging markets.

Short term, yes capitalism rules - competition drives productivity. Long term, I don't think it works - and thats what we're seeing here. Unstable jobs easily getting outsourced; poor education system for the strongest economic system in the world, and education is essential in a strong economy; industry crowding the center on almost everything, ie. banks so when an issues plagues one company, it plagues the system; the system of credit that runs capitalist and run rapid, as the USA becomes more of a consuming country then a producing, and debt skyrockets; and of coarse, other non-economic factors such as poor health care.

China vs India ... I agree, India has better long term prospects but not because of this democracy=better crap. India has focused more on IT then production, while China obviously is focusing on production. China should be the strength for the near future and IMO will be the world power for the near future; India's prospects are long term. Right now, India's foundation is weak while Chinas is strong, but its always easier to build an economy through production rather then IT/design. In the end though, I think it will be one complimenting the other rather then one "beating" the other - India providing the IT and soon design, China doing the production. Again, from the high-tech standpoint (the industry I know best, obviously) I think the USA will be in a dog fight to keep their knowledge and work in-house here, as 90% of the high-tech in Silicon Valley is software, not hardware, and Software is easier to outsource.

Socialism as an ideal is based on a society-wide form of cooperation. From what we know of human behavior this is all but impossible. Socialists know this and that is why they accept a very large degree of state coercion to accomplish their means. Enforced cooperation isn't cooperation and the outcomes are never fair or egalitarian. In fact, if you look at social statistics, socialist countries often have much more difficulty dealing with even the most basic of economic and political problems.

As a political science student, who takes the discipline seriously, I have studied various schools of political behavior, particularly those influenced by the biological sciences. I can say that humans, on a biological level, require two things for sustained cooperation, kin relations or a reciprocal relationship. Obviously, the first one is based around family and is the basis for the Roman systems (notice how they were organized into families) and a lot of the older feudal economic systems. The second is a lot harder. Reciprocal economic relationships require a fair and free game that is often played without personal knowledge of the other person. Free markets are a good way of handling this as they deal with real human incentives based around self-interest. When people are free to make their own decisions, outcomes are often a lot more equal, as everyone gets a chance to produce at their own competitive advantage.

Problems often occur when governments get involved. This credit market thing is actually the result of government legislation under Carter and renewed under Clinton that forced creditors to give a certain % of bad mortgages to people who were unable to lend at normal rates. It isn't all the markets fault.

[Azure]

I'm not 'dogging' any questions.

I have lived both in the US and Canada, and have talked to a lot of people who have spent time in numerous communist countries, like China/Cuba/the old Soviet Union, etc, etc.

We have a good system here in North America. And in general throughout Western Society. Sure, there are flaws, but like I've said before, its not perfect.

You can prop up China all you want, but I know for a fact that a country that restricts freedom of speech, freedom of the media, freedom of the internet....is not a place I would like to live. And I would NOT, under any circumstances support it, or even think of defending it.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by peter12

Socialism as an ideal is based on a society-wide form of cooperation. From what we know of human behavior this is all but impossible. Socialists know this and that is why they accept a very large degree of state coercion to accomplish their means. Enforced cooperation isn't cooperation and the outcomes are never fair or egalitarian. In fact, if you look at social statistics, socialist countries often have much more difficulty dealing with even the most basic of economic and political problems.

As a political science student, who takes the discipline seriously, I have studied various schools of political behavior, particularly those influenced by the biological sciences. I can say that humans, on a biological level, require two things for sustained cooperation, kin relations or a reciprocal relationship. Obviously, the first one is based around family and is the basis for the Roman systems (notice how they were organized into families) and a lot of the older feudal economic systems. The second is a lot harder. Reciprocal economic relationships require a fair and free game that is often played without personal knowledge of the other person. Free markets are a good way of handling this as they deal with real human incentives based around self-interest. When people are free to make their own decisions, outcomes are often a lot more equal, as everyone gets a chance to produce at their own competitive advantage.

Problems often occur when governments get involved. This credit market thing is actually the result of government legislation under Carter and renewed under Clinton that forced creditors to give a certain % of bad mortgages to people who were unable to lend at normal rates. It isn't all the markets fault.

In more words....pretty much sums up what I think.

But I guess my view is 'simple.'

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Azure

In more words....pretty much sums up what I think.

But I guess my view is 'simple.'

Intelligent people mainly operate on this level intuitively. It's the people who aren't worried about simple things that get caught up in the utopianism of the "left."

[Phanuthier]

Yes I have been outside of North America. Europe (western, eastern, yugaslavia, scandiavia, russia), Asia, Australia, Latin America. Currently living in the USA at the moment. I have relatives that I frequently talk to in Denmark and Hong Kong. I grew up in Canada, obviously, and I'm currently living in the USA in California, probably one of the states that has the biggest segregation between the rich and everyone else.

moon, may I ask what you do for a living, and when did you travel to these countries? I was in China in 1996 and against in 2007, very different country.

I base alot of my comments on a economy by its education, knowledge and long term prospects. Not political. (And again, I look at the main driving industries of the world: high-tech, medical, energy) Look at China's progress, and India. Then look at the USA. Yes India is shakey politically, and China is progressively changing their policies, but to me, both seem to have stronger education and (job) work ethic, and a stronger system and long term prospects. Look at the GDP of China over the past 10 years, look at the IT growth in China. And, look at the USA over the past 10 years and what has been driving the economy. Then come back and tell me you have a hard time believing China and India will move past the USA.

[Phanuthier]

Yes I have been outside of North America. Europe (western, eastern, yugaslavia, scandiavia, russia), Asia, Australia, Latin America. Currently living in the USA at the moment. I have relatives that I frequently talk to in Denmark and Hong Kong. I grew up in Canada, obviously, and I'm currently living in the USA in California, probably one of the states that has the biggest segregation between the rich and everyone else.

moon, may I ask what you do for a living, and when did you travel to these countries? I was in China in 1996 and against in 2007, very different country.

I base alot of my comments on a economy by its education, knowledge and long term prospects. Not political. (And again, I look at the main driving industries of the world: high-tech, medical, energy) Look at China's progress, and India. Then look at the USA. Yes India is shakey politically, and China is progressively changing their policies, but to me, both seem to have stronger education and (job) work ethic, and a stronger system and long term prospects. Look at the GDP of China over the past 10 years, look at the IT growth in China. And, look at the USA over the past 10 years and what has been driving the economy. Then come back and tell me you have a hard time believing China and India will move past the USA.

Originally Posted by Azure

In more words....pretty much sums up what I think.

But I guess my view is 'simple.'

Yes, that is definately what you've been saying in your posts Azure.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Yes I have been outside of North America. Europe (western, eastern, yugaslavia, scandiavia, russia), Asia, Australia, Latin America. Currently living in the USA at the moment. I have relatives that I frequently talk to in Denmark and Hong Kong. I grew up in Canada, obviously, and I'm currently living in the USA in California, probably one of the states that has the biggest segregation between the rich and everyone else.

moon, may I ask what you do for a living, and when did you travel to these countries? I was in China in 1996 and against in 2007, very different country.

I base alot of my comments on a economy by its education, knowledge and long term prospects. Not political. Look at China's progress, and India. Then look at the USA. Yes India is shakey politically, and China is progressively changing their policies, but to me, both seem to have stronger education and (job) work ethic, and a stronger system and long term prospects. Look at the GDP of China over the past 10 years, look at the IT growth in China. And, look at the USA over the past 10 years and what has been driving the economy. Then come back and tell me you have a hard time believing China and India will move past the USA.

I work in the Oil and Gas industry.

I have travelled overseas since I was a kid back in 1990.

Most recently was in India September 2007.

I haven't been to China so I can't speak to it completed, which was why I focused on India in the post, but unless everyone in the world is lying there are still huge issues in China that they need to focus on themselves.

I have worked with Chinese companies though as recently as 6 months ago and if these are any indication of how China and communism operates (and it would appear there are issues that I found that could be related to communism) then they are a long way from being successful.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

So you have never been outside of North America, right?

How do you know things are so bad in China and India ... if you've never been? What are you basing your opinions on? Jobs? Education? GDP? or just freedom?

Have I ever said things were bad in India?

As for China, like I've said, they restrict many of the 'simple' things that a democratic and FREE society gives us. Freedom of speech, religion, media, internet, etc, etc....not to mention your basic human rights. These are the things that our way of life is built upon. Probably 'simple' to you, but pretty damn important to the rest of us.

I don't give a crap about their GDP, jobs, education, or whatever else. That you believe they will become more powerful than the US one day is a whole different subject.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Yes, that is definately what you've been saying in your posts Azure.

Oh, excuse me. Maybe you need a little help with what I said.

The second is a lot harder. Reciprocal economic relationships require a fair and free game that is often played without personal knowledge of the other person. Free markets are a good way of handling this as they deal with real human incentives based around self-interest. When people are free to make their own decisions, outcomes are often a lot more equal, as everyone gets a chance to produce at their own competitive advantage.

What Peter said...

And what I said earlier in the thread....

Seriously, human nature will always be in conflict with a communist style system. We function BEST when there is something in it for us.

Why would I go the extra mile when my hard work is going to reward some other person that I don't even know? Heck, why should I even work?

If we're presented with a system where our hard work results in benefits for US, chances are most of us will succeed

[Azure]

During the supposed great era of the USA, we've seen market crashes due to greed, we've seen boring assembly line work for a small percentage of the rich to get richer, and we're seeing the affects of corruption boil over from the last 12 years of letting the market run itself. Sure there were a few good years, but it was a society built like a deck of cards... that are all coming crashing down. The monetary system is folding like a cheap, health care is a mess, the education system is failing and simple greed is pushing the economy over the edge. For a few great years, right?

You said this earlier.

How much of this is due to the US government getting involved in areas where they had no right?

How much of this is due to the fact that you have a Congress that has no qualms about spending billions more than they actually have? How much of this is the fault of a 'capitalist' society? Because I think Adam Smith and many of the founding fathers are spinning in their graves right now with the way the US government is operating.

Certainly not the WAY it was meant to be.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I think it can if it's done in a small way by dedicated people communism can be practised. Communes, as far as I know are the true communists and are active and prosperous in Israel and and here. Look at the Hutterites.

I wholeheartly agree with this statement and it is the reason that saying communism can't work is a very flimsy thing to say.

Communism can work, we just haven't seen it yet. Furthermore, with the degree of globalization that is taking place it may be increasingly difficult to institute without failure or corruption.


To respond to the other posters who are debating this I believe Winston Churchill said it best:

"Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others"

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by moon

I work in the Oil and Gas industry.

I have travelled overseas since I was a kid back in 1990.

Most recently was in India September 2007.

I haven't been to China so I can't speak to it completed, which was why I focused on India in the post, but unless everyone in the world is lying there are still huge issues in China that they need to focus on themselves.

I have worked with Chinese companies though as recently as 6 months ago and if these are any indication of how China and communism operates (and it would appear there are issues that I found that could be related to communism) then they are a long way from being successful.

Interesting

I'll admit, I've never been to India. However, about 90% of the people I know here in San Jose are students from India on a visa. Quality of life, as far as I know, is not the least bit poor there. Politically, they aren't the most stable. Education and knowledge, and I know I keep going back to this, I think India or people from India have the strongest foundation for. This from looking almost purely at the high-tech anyways, as I said, I believe the key driving industries in the future are high-tech, medical and energy, and India boosts these in spades. They currently have a strong foundation in IT.

China, again, has issues. No argument from my end. Its turbulent, and they're hitting the curb a few times, but they're getting there. Look no further then Beijing and Shanghai's growth in the past 10 years. For all of Azure's "capitalism is the best we've ever seen" ... China is the fastest growing economy in history.

What are China's issues you speak of? Nationalizing certain industies? Being in oil/gas, I can see where you are coming from. I have read lots of reports about potential nationalizing of certain parts of the energy sector and price control. However, this isn't the same issue that affects all sectors of the economy; I have an uncle and a cousin who own and run multi-million $ companies (one in production, the other in life sciences) in China - that industry is not an issue. They are struggling recently on a whole, yes, as the world economics suffer. But long term, its hard to believe that anyone doubts China's growth.

But as far as issues is concerned, look at the US ... nobody can deny there is a huge elephant in the room there. And IMO, its the tip of the ice berg.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Azure

You said this earlier.

How much of this is due to the US government getting involved in areas where they had no right?

How much of this is due to the fact that you have a Congress that has no qualms about spending billions more than they actually have? How much of this is the fault of a 'capitalist' society? Because I think Adam Smith and many of the founding fathers are spinning in their graves right now with the way the US government is operating.

Certainly not the WAY it was meant to be.

Hmm. This sort of seems like your argument against communism.

The way it has been used is certainly not the way it was meant to be.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by flip

I wholeheartly agree with this statement and it is the reason that saying communism can't work is a very flimsy thing to say.

Communism can work, we just haven't seen it yet. Furthermore, with the degree of globalization that is taking place it may be increasingly difficult to institute without failure or corruption.


To respond to the other posters who are debating this I believe Winston Churchill said it best:

"Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others"

Small economies of 200 or less people function in communes reasonably well, only because of the degree of social authority exercised on the individuals within. Look at the high degree of rules on a kibbutz or Hutterite colony, if you don't follow them, you are asked to leave.

We are talking about free liberal democracy as our common assumption for the morals and ethics of a state. We assume that it is right for individuals to have the highest degree of freedom. Socialists don't make that assumption. In fact, if you read any of the socialist authors you will a very high degree of acceptance in authoritarian or dictatorship government.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by flip

I wholeheartly agree with this statement and it is the reason that saying communism can't work is a very flimsy thing to say.

Communism can work, we just haven't seen it yet. Furthermore, with the degree of globalization that is taking place it may be increasingly difficult to institute without failure or corruption.

Maybe it can work....on a SMALL scale. In a Hutterite colony, everyone knows each other personally, which from the start makes a huge difference.

Plus, they have no problem with 'greed'....or leadership doing things for their own good, and have for the past 200 years made their way of life work because everyone has always benefited equally.

But put 300 million people into that kind of system, and chances are it'll fail. We've seen it before.

To respond to the other posters who are debating this I believe Winston Churchill said it best:

"Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others"

In a way I agree.