Beijing Opening Ceremonies Included Digital Fireworks, Lip Syncs

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

They weren't secret police or former bureacrats - pretty sure they don't fit your description

Slovenia - a hotel and campground owner who was 47,

Under communism his hotel and campground would be nationalized and taken away from him. Wonder how he would like that.

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

two 25 year old white water kayaking guides,

Under communism, they would get about two customers a week and they wouldnt be allowed to travel around the world and kayak where they wanted. Wonder how they would like that.

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

owner/manager of a hostel

Under communism his hotel and campground would be nationalized and taken away from him. Wonder how he would like that.

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Croatia - a 19 year old labourer,

Typical supporter of socialism, probably lacking brains to know better.

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

a mid-50s lady who rents out her room to visiters

Under communism she would not be able to rent our her room to visitors (let alone foreigners), not to mentioned there would be too few of them.

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Bosnia - 17 year old bartender, mid-40s hostel manager
Serbia - mid-20s girl (didn't get occupation)

Bartender and the girl - probably young nationalists with romantic dreams about Yugoslavian past who again dont know better. Young people in eastern germany widely support neo nazi parties, what does that say about them?

These people are nuts, no other way to put it. Call me ignorant, but thats what they are.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Yes, because the Western way is always the best, and anything else is quote "lunacy".

Are you really comparing the west and totalitarian regimes all around the world? I'll be the first on this board to pile on a western democracy, but sweet mother of relativism...

[Phanuthier]

Well I can't call you ignorant cause I don't want to get in trouble.

Most of your points are valid - I would rather live in Canada then a communist Cuba or China or Belerus since I did grew up here - but just a few replies,

Slovanian hotel/land owner. He fully realizes that, but is willing to sacrifice what he has (he is an upper-middle class) for the betterment of the majority.

Kayakers - quite frankly, no, they haven't travelled outside of their country before. Not sure why they would only get 2 customers a week?

Croatian labourer - quite frankly, I think he was just pro-communist to be anti-american

Bosnian private room lady - they actually were allowed to rent out their rooms under Tito I believe. Not sure how that was possible under communism, but whatever.

I'm just of the opinion... that westerners seem to have this idea that the way here is the only way. That everything that is different, like how they drive, laws and law enforcement, and so on, is wrong and theirs is right. Ego-centric or whatever its called. With China opening the doors the way they have the past decade, they are a rapidly changing country and culture due to the olympics, and mostly by a demand as they are influenced by the western world. If they want things a certain way, they'll demand it and it will come, but change is not instantaneous, its progressive. These olympics have done a huge wonder for China, opening doors and sharing a culture that previously had its doors shut for hundreads of years. They listen to us... and we block them out, ignore them and tell them they are doing it all wrong, and rearrange the furniture when they open the doors to the world for the first time. I see this is the wrong approach.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by jammies

I don't like it, no, and I would never vacation there. I refused to go there for work once (installing routers into a hotel there) and everyone thought I was crazy - beaches in Cuba in January, or Calgary?

Cuba has been a passion of mine for a long time, and the truth is the embargo by the US is the single most reason Castro has retained power for as long as he did.

You see the average Cuban is suffering because of our embargo's against them, while they do exceptional work on educating their people and giving them the best society they could, minus the obvious abuses by a dictatorial rule.

One of my former clients went every year with her husband, staying with Cuban friends, I went 3 times in the last 10 yrs, 2 times staying half my 14 days with people in Havana.

This is a country punished by the USA, with the only hope/support coming from countries like Canada and most of Europe that see they need our tourism for them to survive.

It frustrates me to no end that people can be so black/white with communism like its a simple decision. While the USA knows it can push the Cubans, as it fears the repercussions of rich EX Cubans in Florida (a KEY state in the US elections), it would not DARE offend China.

See ultimately the great fight for freedom is the great fight for profit. Cuba isn't worth much to the USA, so it can be bullied. But China which is a true communist society can be dealt with as a favored trading partner and friend.

The hypocracy abounds, and we are sadly not past the Mcarthy era of thinking communism in its form is evil. Communism can change, it does not require war, nor embargo, but our embrace and trading.

Little can resist that.

But if you feel good at night thinking you are helping Cuba by not vacationing there, I dare you to sit down with a Cuban family that I spend a few days with every time I'm there.

The people suffer, the government, does not.

So boycott all you want, you only hurt the people.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Are you really comparing the west and totalitarian regimes all around the world? I'll be the first on this board to pile on a western democracy, but sweet mother of relativism...

You've commented on Socialist societies.

Just wanted to point out that some of the places with the happiest citizens living the LONGEST life, HAPPIEST existance, and given great health and most importantly excellent education are in fact, Socialist societies.

So try not to think the West has the best system around, we keep finding out how flawed, unfavorable to the middle class, and un sustainable it really is.

Ask the former US comptroller how much time the US has before it bankrupts, I believe he says in 40 yrs the US is in danger of collapse.

But at least 4% of the US wealthiest have nice homes (10 each), nicest cars (20 each) and the ability to live life above the law or societal norms that everyone else has.

Profit above all will lead to epic failure, which we will see in the next 50-100 years.

Caring about your people, supporting social programs like universal healthcare are going to go a long way above profit above all else.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Thor

It frustrates me to no end that people can be so black/white with communism like its a simple decision.

I think this is what gets me the most, people that think China, Russia, India = bad, us = good. And its not. Its not a simple decision, its a very complicated one based upon a very conservative society that has shut its doors in the world, and is only opening them now. Change is progressive, no instantaneous, and China is taking upon western values that help them but also keeps conservative values of the culture that helps them as well. No matter what, the old regime will always push the new regime every time, China is not going to turn into USA over night.

JohnnyFlame and a few others have commented on China, I have personally talked to many who live there as well - its not the USSR, people do not live in fear. The secret police doesn't scare the Chinese like the former Soviet states, Hungary and Slovakia for instance who absolutely hated USSR rule. You wouldn't even notice it unless you turned on CNN. They live similarly to how we live.

In 5 years and 10 years, China will be very different then it is now, and will continue to modernize and westernize as they learn more about us. I just wish people here wouldn't be so black/white as you say, and take this opportunity to learn about them as well.

[Shazam]

Interesting. Suffice it to say that if we go down the anecdotal route, I've met more than my fair share of Chinese that were more than happy to come to Canada and leave China's totalitarian regime.

[Ironhorse]

Allright, back on topic.

Someone in this thread (can't find it right now) mentioned that they saw a huge transformation in Beijing from 10 years prior to 6 months before the Olympics. I wonder if they were tricked into thinking this way.

Beijing twists reality in quest for perfection.

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...e-b778adad32fc

China's two different images are seen here as a boy washes clothes behind a fence erected in preparation for the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games in the city's Jian Guo Men district.

Photograph by : Carlos Barria, Reuters

There is a larger, in colour version of the above image in the printed versions of The Herald

former dissident Xiao Qiang, who said the substitution of the pretty girl for the unsuitable one "illustrates an important aspect of these Olympic Games. It is all about projecting the right image of China with no respect for honesty or for the audience."I do not think the Chinese state realizes how unethical this is, they don't understand what kind of values they are reflecting."

I think they are just trying way too hard to look good and cover up reality. Kind of like a hot lass wearing too much makeup and silicone inserts in her bra.

[Shazam]

In other news, Calgarypuck is no longer accessible in China.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Shazam

In other news, Calgarypuck is no longer accessible in China.

Cause not enough Chinese girls were taken in the hottie draft.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Thor

You see the average Cuban is suffering because of our embargo's against them, while they do exceptional work on educating their people and giving them the best society they could, minus the obvious abuses by a dictatorial rule.

You seem pretty non-chalant about these abuses.

I am not so sure that do you're best to provide the so-called best society makes up for the disaperance of family memebers. My guess is most Cubans would take a hit in the education department in order to get their fathers/brothers/uncles back.

Originally Posted by Thor

You've commented on Socialist societies.

Just wanted to point out that some of the places with the happiest citizens living the LONGEST life, HAPPIEST existance, and given great health and most importantly excellent education are in fact, Socialist societies.

So try not to think the West has the best system around, we keep finding out how flawed, unfavorable to the middle class, and un sustainable it really is.

Ask the former US comptroller how much time the US has before it bankrupts, I believe he says in 40 yrs the US is in danger of collapse.

But at least 4% of the US wealthiest have nice homes (10 each), nicest cars (20 each) and the ability to live life above the law or societal norms that everyone else has.

Profit above all will lead to epic failure, which we will see in the next 50-100 years.

Caring about your people, supporting social programs like universal healthcare are going to go a long way above profit above all else.

It seemed that he was actaully commenting on the totalitarian nature of these regimes and nothing to do with the socialist nature.

But I guess it is cool if you have great healthcare so long as you are able to avoid being killed by your government in order to take advantage of it.

I can't wait until 50 years from now when people are talking about how in 50 years the western world is going to collapse, totalling ignoring the crap they have been spewing for the 50 years prior.

[Bagor]

China responds.

A senior Olympics official in China has defended the decision to replace a girl in last Friday's opening ceremony with another deemed to look more suitable.
"I don't see anything wrong with it, if everybody concerned agrees," said Wang Wei of the organising committee.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7558140.stm

I agree that it's a big deal being made out of something that IMO isn't that big of a deal. It's their artistic license to do whatever they want.

Really grasping at things now.

The miming incident is one of a number of stories thought to have caused some private embarrassment to Olympic organisers.
In another disclosure, it was revealed that parts of the footage of the opening ceremony fireworks were pre-produced.
Organisers have also been trying to explain why so many empty seats have been visible at purportedly sold-out events.

Guess the BBC doesn't see many Red Wing games.

[bluntus logicimus]

Originally Posted by vodafone_b

wow seriously, this is making front page headlines from CNN.
Are you serious?

Didn't lipsyncing originated from western countries? What is so different than Britney or Madonna or Ashley Simpson lipsyncing on stage? Or have their records "tune" to make them sound amazing on records because they sing bad in real life but look good on stage?? How is this different than this case?

What makes this different (although I agree the outrage over this particular incident in bordering on old mother hen lunacy) is that the voice and face are not the same. In the cases you cite above, it was their voice that they lip synced to. And that makes it a very different issue.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by bluntus logicimus

What makes this different (although I agree the outrage over this particular incident in bordering on old mother hen lunacy) is that the voice and face are not the same. In the cases you cite above, it was their voice that they lip synced to. And that makes it a very different issue.

Milli Vanilli are not impressed.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Is it great, no. jammies clearly has no idea wtf China is like. Its like talking to a wall sometimes. Completely ignores first hand opinions and refuses to accept Cuba (been there, 2 years ago), stories from more hten a few in former Yugaslavia (been there, 2 months ago), stories from China (been there, many times)...

Everything but the Western way is lunacy

(jammies I generally like you as a poster, especially on hockey where I think you are an elite poster on this board. But when it comes to this topic in particular, I find you to be too stubborn to view the potential that the other side might have a valid point)

I respect you as well, but I just don't understand why you cannot see the difference between criticizing the Chinese GOVERNMENT and Chinese culture. Communism is NOT Chinese culture, it is a political system directly derived from Western thought. For that matter, it isn't Yugoslavian culture or Cuban culture, either, it isn't *any* kind of culture.

The whole "way of life" argument is moot. Whether the common Chinese citizen supports the regime is moot. Whether I have been to China or not is moot. I am not arguing whether the people are happy, or whether they think that the government is doing a good job. I am saying that a government that kills and imprisons people for dissidence is evil. I am saying that a government that limits fundamental human rights is wrong. I am saying that a government that blatantly lies about the facts of history is corrupt and indefensible.

These are not issues of cultural relativism. These are statements about political morality. There are Western nations that have embraced dictatorship and there are Eastern nations that are democracies. If I choose to find democracy by far the preferable system, this does not imply that I think "anything but the Western way is lunacy", it simply means that I do not agree with the viewpoint that totalitarian systems are reflections of their nation's culture and are legitimized by it. That viewpoint is the truly offensive one, for it implies that the Chinese people DESERVE nothing better than a repressive and arbitrary regime. Is that truly what you think?

So far I have seen nothing but anecdotal arguments about how personal experience trumps any other point made. Sorry, that just doesn't cut it, any more than someone's personal experience of Jesus is going to convert me to evangelism. That's not being stubborn, that's being objective. If you really want to convince me, why not address the arguments I've made, rather than going back to the idea that the Chinese are happy with their government, so I should be too!

Explain to me why China should rule Tibet. Explain to me why the killing of mullahs in their Islamic provinces is right. Why the Falun Gong should be outlawed and its practitioners re-educated (ie - mentally and physically tortured) in labor camps and psychiatric hospitals. Why all "anti-China" content on the Internet should be censored. How it is that senior Party officials must be bribed to move any enterprise forward. Why they hold forces in readiness to invade Taiwan. Explain even one of these and I will listen - anything else is wasted space.

My entire reason for hating their GOVERNMENT depends on these issues, and I am hardly likely to change my mind unless they are addressed. Is it unreasonable to expect my actual opinions to be argued with?

[jammies]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Cause not enough Chinese girls were taken in the hottie draft.

Didn't TheyCallMeBruce have an all-Asian team? I actually started to get interested in how he would manage to pick another Asian girl for every category, even the tough ones like "Black/African born". You have to admire a man with that kind of dedication to a goal.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by jammies

Didn't TheyCallMeBruce have an all-Asian team? I actually started to get interested in how he would manage to pick another Asian girl for every category, even the tough ones like "Black/African born". You have to admire a man with that kind of dedication to a goal.

Just took a look, there is not a single chinese flag on his team.
So it's his fault that we've blocked!

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Just took a look, there is not a single chinese flag on his team.
So it's his fault that we've blocked!

Are you sure there wernt any from Hong Kong.

At least from my perspective and extensive research on the subject, when it comes to women of that continent, mainland china lacks in exposure when considering the powerhouses of Japan, Korea, Singapore, etc.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Thor

But if you feel good at night thinking you are helping Cuba by not vacationing there, I dare you to sit down with a Cuban family that I spend a few days with every time I'm there.

Once you figure out how to improve the lot of the common people without also propping up the government that is actually causing their lot to be so wretched, let me know, I'll be the first one to recommend you for a Nobel.

However, in the meantime, there are plenty of other poor Caribbean countries that could use my tourist dollar just as much as the Cubans could. Or is Cuba special somehow and deserves my money more than, say, St. Lucia?

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Are you really comparing the west and totalitarian regimes all around the world? I'll be the first on this board to pile on a western democracy, but sweet mother of relativism...

No, I'm just trying to point out the "West is best, everyone else who isn't like us just don't know better" attitude is elitist and ethnocentric. From some of the posts, it seems to me some feel when it comes to government, there's only the Western way, and the evil way, which is simply not true.

As to the whole argument of why people would rather have state owned vs. privately owned. Believe it or not, some people actually like having the security of a state owned business rather than being driven out of business by merciless private corporations in their pursuit for the all mighty dollar.

All I'm saying is, when it comes to govenment, there's more than one way to do it if done right. I'm not denying that corruption warps the ideal of a communist regime. But if done right, it can also be a viable system, especially trying to govern a nation with 1.5 billion people.