I think that when old people say they are ready to go, it's not so much that they don't have anything to live for. It's more that they've made peace with themselves. When I'm at peace, I sleep better, function better and enjoy more and I hope that when I go, I'll be at peace.
As an atheist, the problem of death becomes acute, as this life becomes all there is and all there will ever be. I used to fear death and hope that somehow science would advance and grant some form of immortality - anything to save me from the fate that every other person that has ever existed must face - however in the last few years, as I've grown older, the certainty that one day I will die has become less and less important.
After all, what separates my consciousness from all others and gives it value? It cannot be merely my thought and experience, as those, while certainly unique, are valuable only to me, and to exalt them as irreplaceable is merely an expression of selfishness. Rather it must be my ACTIONS, and how they affect those around me that are important. If I have a million years, and all I do with those years is indulge myself, then I might as well never have existed. On the other hand, if I live only the tiniest fraction of that but use my time to make the world a better place than if I had never existed, then I have defeated death because the important part of me - my actions - will have consequences far beyond the days measured out to my physical being.
Personally I don't think that belief in an 'afterlife'=a belief in 'god'.
A cycle of birth/death/rebirth may just be the way the natural world works no supernatural filler needed.
__________________
"WHAT HAVE WE EVER DONE TO DESERVE THIS??? WHAT IS WRONG WITH US????" -Oiler Fan
"It was a debacle of monumental proportions." -MacT
One interesting point that hasn't come up yet is that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but only transformed from one form to another.
Our brains do utilize chemical and even electrical energy which what one could argue is the basis of the "spirit" or "soul". When our body eventually dies, this energy has to go somewhere.
Is this the 21grams idea? Is that true? Or is it a myth?
__________________
"WHAT HAVE WE EVER DONE TO DESERVE THIS??? WHAT IS WRONG WITH US????" -Oiler Fan
"It was a debacle of monumental proportions." -MacT
In the last 12 months, I've learned that the important thing is the effect your death will have on those who are close to you. I can't worry about what'll happen to me after death, because I'm sure it'll be one of two things: a) nothingness...the same as I experienced before birth (which wasn't so bad), or b) something that is beyond human comprehension. Either way, I'm not worried about myself.
Previously, I used to worry that if I died unexpectedly, the people who were left would poke through my private things and find out things that I wouldn't want them to know. That made me worry for my own "pride" or something. However, since I've seen this process happen over the last year, I realize that it's absolutely not about me. Now I'm worried about how other people would be affected if they learned things that *they* don't want to know.
It's stupid...not only do I have a natural instinct to survive, but I feel like I have a responsibility to keep other people from being miserable (by keeping myself alive). Not that I'm contemplating it, but perhaps that feeling of "responsibility" is what keeps some people from killing themselves to take the "easy way out." Ah well...enough rambling for tonight.
One interesting point that hasn't come up yet is that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but only transformed from one form to another.
Our brains do utilize chemical and even electrical energy which what one could argue is the basis of the "spirit" or "soul". When our body eventually dies, this energy has to go somewhere.
Agree..but could it also die like a battery does? Just run out of juice? That's not what I believe but probably what many believe.
In the last 12 months, I've learned that the important thing is the effect your death will have on those who are close to you. I can't worry about what'll happen to me after death, because I'm sure it'll be one of two things: a) nothingness...the same as I experienced before birth (which wasn't so bad), or b) something that is beyond human comprehension. Either way, I'm not worried about myself.
Previously, I used to worry that if I died unexpectedly, the people who were left would poke through my private things and find out things that I wouldn't want them to know. That made me worry for my own "pride" or something. However, since I've seen this process happen over the last year, I realize that it's absolutely not about me. Now I'm worried about how other people would be affected if they learned things that *they* don't want to know.
It's stupid...not only do I have a natural instinct to survive, but I feel like I have a responsibility to keep other people from being miserable (by keeping myself alive). Not that I'm contemplating it, but perhaps that feeling of "responsibility" is what keeps some people from killing themselves to take the "easy way out." Ah well...enough rambling for tonight.
Are you talking about 'toys' in your drawers or deep dark secrets written in a diary or something?
I always think about a very good friend that I had, we had a great friendship, but fell apart and now don't even speak. Sometimes I think about what either of us will feel if the other one dies suddenly. I know deep down we care about eachother and want to know that the other one is doing fine and in good spirits, but our falling out may have been too damaging to ever make things right.
Other than that though, I'm still too young (not married) to really worry too much about dying. Not that I want to, but if today I walked out and got hit by a bus, I'd say I had fun, met good people and not everyone can live to 100.
I honostly have a new found respect for the board and the posters on it. This is a subject that I have only discussed with people very very close to me, and I thought I was going to look a like a freak or something for posting this.
You have no idea how your words have helped, short term, my situation. I actually thought I'd increase my fear by thinking what the responses would be, but the responses have helped.
Some of you have stated that you think that these thoughts manifested somehow due to the birth of my child. This is not so. I remember talking to my high school guidence counciler about this subject. It's been something thats haunted me off an on over 10 years. Nothing that has crippled me day to day, but every so often, it just pops in there.
It's not about my family and what would happen to them when I go. I know they would be taken care of financially and emotionally, or as much as could be hoped in that situation. It's my own mortality, and the 'next step'.
I don't think it was him who origionally coined the phrase, but I remember watching Marlyn Mason in an interview say something along the lines of "People fear what they don't understand". I think that sums up my fear in a nutshell.
I'm trying to eat healthier, trying to spend more time with loved ones, and like you guys say, just trying to live in the moment, cause we never know when the moment will be gone.
It's a small step for me, and it's showing results. Plus I have a lot of reading due to the suggestions provided as well.
Some of you have also sent PMs to me, in order for your words to not be lost in the shuffle. I have read them, and even though I have not responded, I intend to. Just not this weekend.
Thanks again CP Nation, and feel free to continue the thread. It seems I'm not the only one going through this. Who would have thought the home of hookers and blow, stamp, Bring Back Conroy, free cats, etc could have some 'healing powers'.
I heard somewhere once that the average person thinks about death 2 or 3 times a day. I don't know if that is true but, I wouldn't doubt it.
Of course I approach the issue of death from a faith perspective. I have specific beliefs of what are going to happened based on a book I believed to be inspired by God. I don't worry about death at all other than hoping I kick around long enough for my kids to grow up. I don't believe I can lose heaven so I'm not motivated by that fear{unlike some Christian sects}. The down side is that the same book tells me that some people I love are in peril of judgment and a horrible afterlife. So a position of faith isn't entirely a position of comfort.
Most people I meet hold a position of hope. Usually it is based loosely on a christian concept of the afterlife because of the christian influence on the culture. Others have embraced more eastern concepts of the afterlife or a mixture of the two. I would call their beliefs hope based rather than faith based because it isn't base on a specific religious teaching or revelation but, rather a mixture of what they have heard and what they would like the afterlife to be like. This position to me lacks any certainty but, it does seem to offer comfort for those who embrace it.
I understand that you as an atheist can't embrace faith but, I can't see why hope is out of the question. If I was to ask you how close we are to exhausting the limits of obtainable knowledge you would probably laugh at the thought. If I was to ask you for a percentage it would probably be a fraction of 1%. Likewise there is a small but, significant percentage of knowledge that we hold today that tomorrow will be proven wrong. Everything that is not part of or in serious conflict with that fraction of one percent is fodder for hope. Certainly the afterlife and the possibility of a spiritual dimension to man is part of that 99+%. The possibility of a deity or deities having had an influence on the development of all we know is part of that unknown +99%. As an atheist you might not see the likelihood of a deity but, as one who embraces science you should respect hope. Most science is motivated by hope:Hope for a cure or hope of better world both motivate scientists. Hope that a theory of how some part of the world works is proven and adds to that less than one percent of the known consumes the working lives of scientists. Why can't you hope in something like an afterlife. The possibilities are endless.
This is an interesting thread, with many interesting posts and viewpoints. I made a couple of posts earlier ... one serious, one not. I've had a few rums and beers and feel like unloading a little. Hopefully something of value will come out.
As I said in one of my earlier posts, I should have died a couple of times already but didn't, which has given me a somewhat fatalistic view of life and death. Several other personal experiences have only reinforced that.
I have been a pall bearer three times so far in my life, only one of which was for a normal death.
The first time I was a pall bearer was for my two-year-old niece. She died from complications of pneumonia and incompetent rural hospital staff. There was no rationale for her death that I have ever figured out.
The second time I was a pall bearer was for a close friend who died in a really stupid accident. He was traveling in a car that was being tailgated by a guy with his brights on that refused to pass the vehicle my buddy was traveling in, even though the drive of my buddy's vehicle slowed to below speed limit (rural highway, late at night). Ultimately, the driver of my buddy's car pulled onto the shoulder of the highway and stopped. A fist fight ensued and the driver of my buddy's car was knocked unconscious in the middle of the highway. My buddy was pulling him off the middle of the highway when an oncoming vehicle struck and killed them both. The real irony of this incident was that the guy who struck my buddy and his friend was a truck driver who had someone commit suicide by driving under his semi a couple weeks before that and was undergoing therapy to deal with the trauma of that incident. I have never been able to find any rationale for that incident.
I had a friend who died at 14 due to a "trick" hanging gag he was trying to do. The apparatus for the hanging trick malfunctioned and he strangled to death in front of his family. I can find no rationale in this incident as well.
I had an uncle who died in a work related accident shortly after he retired. He was working a few extra shifts to fill in as holiday relief. Shortly after that, his oldest son died in a work related accident. His son was a marine biologist and the research barge he was on was swamped during a storm off of Tofino. No remains were found. Again, I cannot find any rationale for their deaths. I doubt the message was don't work.
The above deaths, combined with my own survival when by rights I should have been killed, leads me to believe that there is often no reason for life or death. It's either your turn, or it's not. And there's not much you can do about it.
As for an afterlife, I figure that doesn't matter much either. If there's an afterlife great. If not you're not likely going to know or care. I believe there is some kind of afterlife though. I was at my father's bedside when he died. He was practically in a coma due to advanced cancer and general systemic shutdown when he died. Right at the end though he came out of his coma, stupor, or whatever you want to call it, looked up at the ceiling in the corner of his hospital room, pointed at his chest, nodded, and died. It really seemed he was communicating with somebody or something unseen. That's the best evidence I've ever seen for the existence of an afterlife. But who knows, maybe I was just trying to read meaning into his death throes. I reckon I'll find out eventually.
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
Randy Pausch Last Lecture: Achieving Your Childhood Dreams
Carnegie Mellon Professor Randy Pausch (Oct. 23, 1960 - July 25, 2008) gave his last lecture at the university Sept. 18, 2007, before a packed McConomy Auditorium. In his moving presentation, "Really Achieving Your Childhood Dreams," Pausch talked about his lessons learned and gave advice to students on how to achieve their own career and personal goals. For more, visit www.cmu.edu/randyslecture.
I can't say I'm particularly scared of death but I have thought of it, especially when I was younger. I remember having these great discussions with my late mother about this very subject. We were not religious at all but she felt very strongly about life after death. "It's like the seasons" she would say. Spring is birth, summer is life, autumn is old age, winter is death, repeat. This has stayed with me and makes sense. When she was dying of lung cancer at a relatively young age (she never smoke, drank, ate the wrong things etc.) I kept remembering that.
After her death we found a note that she had written. It said something along the lines of "I'm not quite ready to go yet. I have a few things to finish then I'll be ready. It won't be long. I'll let you know when I can go." This creeped me out at first but the more I thought about it the more it seemed to signal to me, at least, that there was something after death. Having now lost nearly all of my immediate family I truly believe that there really is an afterlife or a rebirth of life; something of that nature. This may seem a little wacko to you all but I was 'visited' kinda by my mother and grandmother quite soon after their deaths. I had just moved to Canada and was staying at my wife's parents house. We were asleep and in a 'dream' my mum and grandma were pleading with me to wake me, absolutely begging me. This went on for a while. This was strange as I rarely remember having a dream ever. Anyway, I did wake up and, somehow, I had managed to jam my arm behind a metal sewing table we had beside the bed. The table had very sharp sides and it was literally cutting me very badly on the wrist. It was deep. If I hadn't woken up I probably could have died. I have never been 'visited' by them since that day, about 15 years ago now. I don't know if that proves anything (Of course it doesn't) but I personally have found some comfort in it at least.
Since having a family (wife and four children now) I have done the sensible things. Life insurance on the mortgage, line of credit, and myself. I want them to be ok if something did happen. Unlike Fotze I really don't find having kids is that tough at all. Yes, it's demanding and a big responsibilty but it's something that I cherish everyday. It's LIFE and, for me at least, what it is all about. I can trace my family tree back to the 11th century. One of my ancestors was William the Conquerors right hand men! French blood! As an Englishman that is a worrying thought! This doesn't mean much to this debate but I truly believe that we owe our ancestors great respect and a duty to carry on the line, as it were. (I've done it a few times over now and, believe it or not, would do it even moreso.) I do truly believe that there is a circle of life now and I want to do my part to carry it on.
Death is inevitable, sure. But then as comes death so comes life. That's inevitable too. It's the way of things.
Good luck in dealing with the ultimate question. Bottom line is that nobody really knows, it all comes down to what you believe.
Rambling post. Sorry, it's late. Time to quit now....
Ive taken the time to read all the posts in this thread and am amazed at the deep looks into this there are. I for one was raised Catholic and sort of denounced my faith and have become a person with no real religious beliefs.
I believe it that we think about death at least 2 times a day, I often think about it while driving mostly. Especially late at night. I often wonder what would happen if I suddenly died, my car crashed and I was gone. Would my thoughts, my memories all disappear into nothing? Would the inner voice I have be transferred elsewhere? I don't necessarily believe in re-incarnation but the thoughts of where that 'soul' goes often crosses my mind even though I believe nothing may happen at all when we die.
My personal experiences with death have always made me question my non-beliefs and wonder if there are some other outer things working in the universe. For one, when my uncle was in the hospital with cancer; my cousin and I spent a night with him. Her and I couldn't sleep at all, through the night he was talking in his sleep about the most messed up things, spiritual, paranormal, crazy odd memories.. We were freaked.. He passed away that morning.
My Nana died 2 years ago in October after falling and hurting herself while at our cottage and experiencing a house fire a month earlier. Now my grandpa basically saved her, got tons of burns on him and the experience sort of made things go downhill for them both after that.
After my Nana passed, I definitely believe of someone dying of a broken heart. He lost his license, his house, and had to be put into a home with moderate assistance after she passed. He died almost exactly a year after she did in October. Within that year he went from driving back and forth from Toronto, to not even knowing who his children were due to dementia.
We were speaking to the nurses one day after discovering he had slipped in the shower and had a broken leg which he didn't ever tell anyone about for a week (he was just the type of man who never wanted to inconvenience anyone). She said that whenever someone in the home dies, that all of the resident cats hang out in their room the day before they pass... I thought that was complete bull.. But the day before he died, my dad was visiting him and 4 cats stood inside his doorway acting very odd. My grandpa died the next day looking into my dad's eyes.
That sort of things really irks me about death, just the bizarre, freaky things that occur, the fact animals can sense it, makes me wonder if there's some kind of aura surrounding those ready to pass.
We had a big life celebration (our family doesn't have funerals or burials, we all want to be cremated) and a big slideshow of memories and drinks and food and whenever I think of death I always remember what my dad told me on that day, about death being a part of life, and the ability to have our grandpa in each and every one of us keeps him alive even after his body has disappeared. His spirit, his being, his love, his personality, his memories are all carried within all of his family and those who knew him. We spent hours talking about him and our memories of him, and those are what carry on a person past the grave.. the people who he made an impression on.
I really really hold that thought close to me when I ponder my own death.
I had a panic attack thinking about it on the bus a couple of semesters ago and I still have trouble. I think about the world in very literal/scientific terms. The way I see it, we are all just walking systems of atoms that have come together to form a thinking being. When we end, those atoms move on to become part of another system.
If it helps, your body material will soon be part of the earth, which will eventually become part of something living again. In a way, when you die, you become part of a million more life forms
I think when that time finally comes I won't be afraid, even though I am now.
Also, for some reason, thinking about the mysteries of the universe help me cope with death. Even though I think in scientific terms, I don't think science will ever be able to explain where the universe came from and I think, if somehow we ever do find out, the mystery of death will be answered.
I lost all my Grandparents by age 15, my Mother at 23, one of my best friends at 28 and a few cousins over the years.
I guess as for death, once you experience someone close to you passing, the future times you deal with it becomes a little easier. Its never going to be easy, but you find your own way of dealing with it, obviously for me losing my Mother was very hard but she's always in our minds and we still talk about funny stories of her more than 10 years later.
For me afterlife has never really entered my mind, I rather prefer to think about this life and not worry about something that could or could not be. People who pass live on in those they leave behind, and that is what should be enough people to live their own best lives to have some kind of legacy left behind.
Just live your life with passion and do your best to always remember that the things in life which truly give you joy are most always your relationships with family and friends. How much money you make, how many cars you own, or status in society isn't something you will think fondly upon on your death bed.
As an Atheist I see death as myself returning to the dust in which we came from, and that in that sense we never truly die, but our consciousness and being will disperse into the cosmos. So we do become part of something after death, but what matters most is that we live the lives we have here on Earth the best we can.
I have to say though I don't personally think of death very much, maybe its that I've had to deal with my fair share at age 34, not sure, but either way I tend to focus on the living.
Death isn't something to fear... What we should fear is not living this life as if its our only shot at it, because that would be a wasted life if you rely on an afterlife to make your mark.
This thread reminds me of the Coldplay song "Death and all his friends"
Chris Martin quoted below :
Well, this is supposed to be the theme of the album, really. We're aware of all the bad stuff in life, you know - i.e. Death and all his friends - but that doesn't mean you should ever give in to it, you know? So we all sing that bit together really loudly, as kind of a message to ourselves: never giving up and never focusing on the bad stuff too much."
.... We were speaking to the nurses one day after discovering he had slipped in the shower and had a broken leg which he didn't ever tell anyone about for a week (he was just the type of man who never wanted to inconvenience anyone). She said that whenever someone in the home dies, that all of the resident cats hang out in their room the day before they pass... I thought that was complete bull.. But the day before he died, my dad was visiting him and 4 cats stood inside his doorway acting very odd. My grandpa died the next day looking into my dad's eyes...
I've heard that story from nursing home staff too. It's rather interesting and provocative, in semi-spooky way.
Oh great! So when I die, not only am I going to die, I'm going to have itchy eyes, scratchy throat, sneezing with a runny nose because all these goddamn cats will be hanging around me.
Thanks again..now I can go to sleep with a smile on my face G'nite!
Oh great! So when I die, not only am I going to die, I'm going to have itchy eyes, scratchy throat, sneezing with a runny nose because all these goddamn cats will be hanging around me.
Maybe the secret to immortality is keep cats away from your door?
