Waterboarding - Believe me, It's torture

[Kjesse]

This is clearly not simulating drowning. It is causing drowning, but giving you a way out.

You'll take that way out everytime, even if you actually wanted to die.

Your brain will force you to try for oxygen.

This is nothing like, for example, a self-inflicted gunshot, where, by the time it hurts you, its too late, or jumping in front of a tractor-trailer loaded with 100,000 lbs of goods.

Its also nothing like bleeding you slowly (which will cause endorphins to block the pain), or cutting a limb off (which will also allow your body to release drugs to counter the pain.)

This is torture pure and simple, but where the body is programmed to give up.

[Flames0910]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Well then do it again and figure out how to breathe... I'm sure it can be done. I'm not saying for long, I'm just saying longer then 10 seconds.

well i guess he should go submit himself to torture some more not for the sake of spreading word about these methods or anything like that...but because Firefly thinks that he should be able to find a way to breathe.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Bah. He's just not trained for something like that. I bet a person could be taught how to deal with that.

Originally Posted by FireFly

Kudos for being an idiot. Or I suppose a man cause I think it's a rare occasion you'd see women doing this to each other.

What the hell... what's wrong with you? Im hoping these posts were because you left your account open and some moron decided it would be funny to post stupid things like this.

Obviously the technique is extremely effective and inducing pain, the sense of panic which may result in the disclosure of information - otherwise it wouldnt be employed by the CIA or be around as long as it has been.

The fact that he's a middle aged male with no previous experience means little. Are all the prisoners in Guantanamo highly trained in resisting torture of this kind? That point is moot as highly trained CIA officers cant handle it for much longer than Hitchens did.

Youre out to lunch.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

What the hell... what's wrong with you? Im hoping these posts were because you left your account open and some moron decided it would be funny to post stupid things like this.

Obviously the technique is extremely effective and inducing pain, the sense of panic which may result in the disclosure of information - otherwise it wouldnt be employed by the CIA or be around as long as it has been.

The fact that he's a middle aged male with no previous experience means little. Are all the prisoners in Guantanamo highly trained in resisting torture of this kind? That point is moot as highly trained CIA officers cant handle it for much longer than Hitchens did.

Youre out to lunch.

Maybe not. Have you ever considered the possibility that she is just a big proponent of the Bush Administration?

[Azure]

Think of it this way.

How many journalists do you see getting hands on experience before they write about something? Sure, Hitchens gave up very fast, but that has nothing do with it.

The point is that prior to going through this he wrote an article saying that it wasn't torture, and that it SHOULD be legally employed by the US. Now, after having experienced it, he has admitted he was wrong about that.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Locke

Maybe not. Have you ever considered the possibility that she is just a big proponent of the Bush Administration?

If so, you forgot to bold the words "moron" and "stupid".

It just seems so out of place for her type of posts... but if what you say is true, it makes a whole lot more sense. Low brow gender shots? Sounds about right.

A couple of weird, irrational posts. Must be a female thing.

[FireFly]

First off, the first thing I said was that a person could probably be trained to deal with this kind of torture, much like any other kind of torture. I never said it wasn't torture. Then everyone piled on me saying something about everyone who's had it done couldn't last... To which I responded, they probably also aren't trained to deal with it. I'm not talking the people who are trained to inflict this on someone... I'm talking about training yourself to be able to withstand it. The point was that much like anything, you can train your body to resist. Anyone want to spend 7 minutes under water on their first try? Didn't think so. Yet people can do it, and train themselves to...

However I was still piled on for suggesting that a body could be trained to withstand it because clearly, it's torture, and no one can withstand that... So I expanded on my thoughts by saying that the guy is a middle aged fat man with no experience in such things prior. Of course he's not going to do very well with it. In addition, it's not like he's the first to subject himself to the treatment so I'm not sure why he's getting so many kudos. It seems to me like the kind of thing any average male would do on a dare. (Pointing out that in this thread there was mention of at least one person willing to do it on a dare.) He's not unique, he's not special, and he didn't need to do it to write the article. I'm fairly certain that others who have done it would have been more than happy to tell him what it felt like.

But go ahead. Keep patting him on the back for subjecting himself to a form of torture for no really good reason.

This thread amuses me.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by FireFly

First off, the first thing I said was that a person could probably be trained to deal with this kind of torture, much like any other kind of torture. I never said it wasn't torture. Then everyone piled on me saying something about everyone who's had it done couldn't last... To which I responded, they probably also aren't trained to deal with it. I'm not talking the people who are trained to inflict this on someone... I'm talking about training yourself to be able to withstand it. The point was that much like anything, you can train your body to resist. Anyone want to spend 7 minutes under water on their first try? Didn't think so. Yet people can do it, and train themselves to...

However I was still piled on for suggesting that a body could be trained to withstand it because clearly, it's torture, and no one can withstand that... So I expanded on my thoughts by saying that the guy is a middle aged fat man with no experience in such things prior. Of course he's not going to do very well with it. In addition, it's not like he's the first to subject himself to the treatment so I'm not sure why he's getting so many kudos. It seems to me like the kind of thing any average male would do on a dare. (Pointing out that in this thread there was mention of at least one person willing to do it on a dare.) He's not unique, he's not special, and he didn't need to do it to write the article. I'm fairly certain that others who have done it would have been more than happy to tell him what it felt like.

But go ahead. Keep patting him on the back for subjecting himself to a form of torture for no really good reason.

This thread amuses me.

Not that the bolded comment is the only example of you being out to lunch, but it's the most poignant. Hitchens was a very big supporter of using tactics like waterboarding to extract information from terror suspects. He didnt believe it amounted to torture. Im sure he talked to plenty of people who either conducted waterboarding and/or experienced it. That didnt seem to change his mind. So his editor called him out to try it if Hitchens was so sure it wasnt painful or torture. He did, and he changed his mind. That's the freaking point.

As for the rest of your post, you didnt posit your opinions or doubts about Hitchens physical health, his gender or the fact that your body could be trained to withstand such torture in a constructive, "ya, but" sort of way. "Meh" and "Kudos to him for being an idiot" kinda takes away from the validity of the rest of your post.

I was hoping your next post was going to be along the lines of "Sorry guys, some idiot at work got onto my computer at lunch", but alas, I think Locke's just right.

[J pold]

This is very intense according to the Wikipedia article you almost instantly start to Gag and your pulse sky rockets and a large amounts of adrenaline are released because your body really thinks you are about to die

There is a piece in it written by a doctor of torture victims who said that even years after the abuse people who have been subjected are too afraid to take showers and start to panic when it’s raining

[HelloHockeyFans]

Ha ha. After showing my friend the video, he has sort of changed his tune and isn't so sure about trying it out.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by FireFly

However I was still piled on for suggesting that a body could be trained to withstand it because clearly, it's torture, and no one can withstand that...

One of the reasons waterboarding is a very effective means of torture is that it's not about pain. It's about death. No amount of training can take away your body's need to breathe. You don't breathe, you die--even if you're James Bond.

Could you be trained to withstand pain? Maybe. I'm not so sure. But the need to breathe is very basic. Waterboarding is a process where your torturer says "I decide if you get to breathe." It's about control, and life and death. Your torturer owns you, has complete power over you, and can choose whether your brain gets oxygen or if your lungs fill with water. As someone said--this isn't "simulated" drowning. It is drowning. And people have died as a result of the procedure.

There's a simple reason people can't withstand it for very long. You "withstand" it too long, and you die. Simple enough. There's no CIA training that makes that better.

[J pold]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

One of the reasons waterboarding is a very effective means of torture is that it's not about pain. It's about death. No amount of training can take away your body's need to breathe. You don't breathe, you die--even if you're James Bond.

I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of pain

From Wikipedia:

Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

Not that the bolded comment is the only example of you being out to lunch, but it's the most poignant.

Out to lunch? I don't read Hitchens, so how am I to know that he was a 'very big supporter'? Call me ignorant if you like, as it's apparently appropriate in this situation, but calling me out to lunch is wrong.

Hitchens was a very big supporter of using tactics like waterboarding to extract information from terror suspects. He didnt believe it amounted to torture. Im sure he talked to plenty of people who either conducted waterboarding and/or experienced it. That didnt seem to change his mind. So his editor called him out to try it if Hitchens was so sure it wasnt painful or torture. He did, and he changed his mind. That's the freaking point.

Well bravo for 'manning up' to being wrong. That's fabulous. As for you being 'sure' that he talked to plenty of people who had experienced it, are you so sure? One would think that if people are actually scared to shower afterwards as J Pold is saying, then it's quite clear that that's a mental torture no one should undergo. But I digress.

As for the rest of your post, you didnt posit your opinions or doubts about Hitchens physical health, his gender or the fact that your body could be trained to withstand such torture in a constructive, "ya, but" sort of way. "Meh" and "Kudos to him for being an idiot" kinda takes away from the validity of the rest of your post.

I don't have to. But since you asked so nicely this time instead of calling me crazy... Oh wait. You did. Well, I will anyways. Firstly, his physical health. fat people also have fat in their faces and throats to add to the sensation of suffocating. I would be curious to see if Hitchens suffers from some sort of sleep apnea, actually. As for his gender, let me ask you this; how many videos of women voluntarily hurting themselves are there on the internet? It's a guy thing. How much pain can I withstand, I'm tougher than that, blah, blah. Men do it, women, not so much. (Not to say there aren't ANY women out there who do it, just very few.) Here's an interesting thought... Had he just admitted it was torture, he wouldn't have been asked to undergo it, nor would have accepted thinking he could handle it. It's a man thing. You don't see women lighting their crotches on fire and asking their buddies to stomp out the fire, do you? Same theory applies.

I was hoping your next post was going to be along the lines of "Sorry guys, some idiot at work got onto my computer at lunch", but alas, I think Locke's just right.

No to both. I never said it wasn't torture, I said it was stupid. That makes me a proponent of the Bush Administration? Perhaps you should look in the mirror before saying that one line out of a post destroys the validity of the rest.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FireFly

No to both. I never said it wasn't torture, I said it was stupid. That makes me a proponent of the Bush Administration? Perhaps you should look in the mirror before saying that one line out of a post destroys the validity of the rest.

He is a journalist. He's written about the subject and had an opinion about it so he put himself through it. I don't know how that can be considered plain old stupidity. It's almost reverse-machismo. He didn't think it was that bad, he might have even condoned it. His "manning up", as you put it, was really him admitting he was wrong, and making himself look quite the opposite of a tough guy.

Originally Posted by FireFly

It's a man thing. You don't see women lighting their crotches on fire and asking their buddies to stomp out the fire, do you? Same theory applies.

I don't want to turn this into a "man vs. woman" thing any more than it already is , but I'm pretty sure the internet has millions of examples of women willingly doing things that will eventually cause a burning sensation in the crotch.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by FireFly

As for his gender, let me ask you this; how many videos of women voluntarily hurting themselves are there on the internet? It's a guy thing. How much pain can I withstand, I'm tougher than that, blah, blah. Men do it, women, not so much. (Not to say there aren't ANY women out there who do it, just very few.) Here's an interesting thought... Had he just admitted it was torture, he wouldn't have been asked to undergo it, nor would have accepted thinking he could handle it. It's a man thing. You don't see women lighting their crotches on fire and asking their buddies to stomp out the fire, do you? Same theory applies.

Well, it wouldn't be hard to find videos on the internet of chicks cutting themselves and other crazy stuff. It's not pain, but try two girls, one cup. Again, not pain, but ummm.... yeeeah. Are you SERIOUSLY saying girls don't hurt themselves? Seriously?

You should probably just stop posting as it seems like you're digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

[dissentowner]

Nice to see we have a celeb on the board, nice job Torture.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

Well, it wouldn't be hard to find videos on the internet of chicks cutting themselves and other crazy stuff. It's not pain, but try two girls, one cup. Again, not pain, but ummm.... yeeeah. Are you SERIOUSLY saying girls don't hurt themselves? Seriously?

You should probably just stop posting as it seems like you're digging deeper and deeper and deeper.

Not for fun they don't. Not the vast majority. (I've already qualified by saying I'm sure it happens, just not that often.) It seems you're deliberately misinterpreting my words so that you can say I'm digging deeper, when it's really just your unwillingness to accept the truth behind what I'm saying. Kinda like Don Cherry with his ideas about Europeans and French Canadians... they aren't popular, that doesn't make then wrong.

[blankall]

I am one of the first people to get annoyed with random anti-Americanism. But the fact that the US is actually doing this is just Wrong.

Not that I'm saying this makes it right, but was the CIA just doing this in cases where they felt an attack was imminent and it was a life or death situation?

I'm sure many of the people subjected to this weren't exactly angels, but how do you destroy a monster without becoming one?

[Slava]

^ As for the point of "timing" your breathing such, they have measures to guard against that. Hitchens says in the article he could feel something jabbing him in the solar plexus and that was why...to make sure that you are partially drowning.

He tried this twice...with the second time around being not much more successful than the first...so I don't how much you can "train" for this type of thing.

[MrMastodonFarm]

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