My dad was assaulted

[Crispy's Critter]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I was mugged by a gang of Moroccans in Belgium last year. Jumped me for wallet.

Really? I was mugged by a gang of Belgians in Morocco last year! Must be some sort of criminal exchange program

seriously though, hope your dad is ok and they find these punks. As to the racist stuff, no comment either way.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by fatso

This thread has gone completely off the rails. Here are a few of the strands I can decipher...

1. I think everyone feels bad for West Karma and is sincerely glad his/her father will be ok. No doubt about that.

2. Is there a systematic bias, enabled by the government that disadvantages First Nations peoples? yes, absolutely... whether it's "hand-outs" (as some so naively put it), reservations, failure to address historic economic inequality, straight-up racism, etc., I think everyone can agree that First Nations people are in a tough spot and need some better social support and leadership. We can debate the terms of that assistance 'til we're blue in the face, but there is certainly a cultural problem that needs to be addressed - a problem that negatively impacts all Canadians.

3. West Karma's father got beat up by some "drunk Indians". IMO it is fundamentally racist to draw a link between the violence and their race. The presumption that someone is the way he/she is because of their race is racist, because it delimits that individual's character to be a singular expression of their race. Why is race an issue here as JiriHrdina asked, but no one addressed? Is it because "indians" are inherently violent drunks? Is it because "indian blood" carries some kind of social misfit gene? Or maybe it's not about race directly... maybe it's about poverty? And what about those "indians" who are law-abiding, model citizens? Did they beat the Indian gene? Are they the exception to the blood rule? Or maybe they had more opportunities in life or didn't fall through the cracks?

Race may be a valuable descriptor of an individual, but it's not - and should not be - a determinant of, or a criteria through which we pre-determine, their character. At least, that's what racial equality means to me.

4. As always, there's a camp that's adamant there is some politically correct conspiracy to prevent people from speaking the truth. Come to think of it, has there even been a thread in the history of CP that raised race, that did not degenerate into a whinefest about the tyranny of political correctness?

flame away...

I was kind of hoping this thread would just die a natural death, but these comments are worth quoting and endorsing.

With respect to point 4, I'd say it's the one thing about the CP membership - which generally is composed of very intelligent and thoughtful people, especially when compared to the bulk of the interweb - which has consistently proved disappointing. Whenever a thread deals with crime, poverty, or race, a nasty streak emerges from this board. Perhaps the best case in point is the thread on Harper's apology speech to aboriginals. One might have expected the thread to contain posts by people saying "it's about time," or "I hope this helps everyone move on," but instead there's this strange defensiveness and attacks on the notion of apologizing at all. There's an arrogance and a sense of entitlement which emerges and isn't befitting the general character of CP. It's the type of thing which people in BC would describe as "redneck Alberta" and which, until recently, I would have said simply wasn't true of the city I grew up in. But it does seem to be there: a lack of willingness to sympathize, or even attempt to put oneself in the shoes of another.

As far as this thread is concerned, I think the OP's initial reaction is completely understandable: this event was personal, emotional, and highly despicable, and was also, it would seem, tied to race through the comments of his dad's attackers. But I'd like to think that, with a cool head, anyone would be able to divorce race from these types of behaviours. I have no problem with people genuinely discussing issues facing identifiable groups of any stripe, but I think it reflects very badly on this board when a thread degenerates into broad racial stereotyping backed up by little more than personal anecdotes.

Thanks to Fatso for trying to broker some peace here.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Again. Answer me why race had to even be brought into this. His father was assaulted by thus. How this became a race issue puzzles me.

I disagree to a certain extent, because there are serious problems with natives in that area (southland c-train station and surrounding community), I think it's okay for people to discuss problems with a specific race in a specific area, if it is an obvious problem. However, I guess I agree to a certain extent that maybe it shouldn't have been brought up in this specific thread, as the intent of this thread was to bring to light an assault on a family member. But again, it's his thread and if he decided he was tired of drunken natives in that area, and wanted to dicuss it, then he should be allowed to.

[Calgaryborn]

I see some inequity in the discussion of race relations. A minority group can separate themselves and profile white people with no consequences. The apology made by Harper was an example of this. We were to apologize for things a few of our forefathers did. We moreover, will be paying for those sins. But the behaviour of a ethnic group can't be held to their collective account. In fact bad behaviour by ethnic groups more often then not, causes white soul searching because somehow we must be responsible for their actions. I've seen that on this thread. It is quite frustrating and will cause some to react with sweeping generalizations.

Generalizations of any group will be wrong as a whole because everyone is not the same. But generalizations can be generally correct when looking at the big picture. I don't think it is necessary to qualify the conversation every time by saying that for many natives there is no problem when discussing the native problem of crime and violence.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Again. Answer me why race had to even be brought into this. His father was assaulted by thus. How this became a race issue puzzles me.

It's not really a race issue. It's an environment issue, namely the environment that many natives grow up that leads to many of the issues that seem to be disproportionately native.

The issue is not that natives are inherently worse then any other race. The issue is what can we do so that fewer natives have issues with substance abuse and criminal activity that is probably due in part to the environment they have grown up in.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I see some inequity in the discussion of race relations. A minority group can separate themselves and profile white people with no consequences. The apology made by Harper was an example of this. We were to apologize for things a few of our forefathers did. We moreover, will be paying for those sins. But the behaviour of a ethnic group can't be held to their collective account. In fact bad behaviour by ethnic groups more often then not, causes white soul searching because somehow we must be responsible for their actions. I've seen that on this thread. It is quite frustrating and will cause some to react with sweeping generalizations.

Generalizations of any group will be wrong as a whole because everyone is not the same. But generalizations can be generally correct when looking at the big picture. I don't think it is necessary to qualify the conversation every time by saying that for many natives there is no problem when discussing the native problem of crime and violence.

Wait. Didn't Harper apologize on behalf of all Canadians, regardless of race? Did he single out white people as being particularly guilty? And again, the apology was about acknowledging something awful in Canada's history - a story not well-known that deserves attention. I don't think it's meant to make white people feel some guilt, but like flylockshox noted, that always seems to be the presumption around here.

Further, when do white people get profiled?

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by fatso

Further, when do white people get profiled?

On the dance floor.

It happens to me every time I try to bust a move with a fly honey.

And every time it happens, I die a little inside.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by flameswin

I disagree to a certain extent, because there are serious problems with natives in that area (southland c-train station and surrounding community), I think it's okay for people to discuss problems with a specific race in a specific area, if it is an obvious problem. However, I guess I agree to a certain extent that maybe it shouldn't have been brought up in this specific thread, as the intent of this thread was to bring to light an assault on a family member. But again, it's his thread and if he decided he was tired of drunken natives in that area, and wanted to dicuss it, then he should be allowed to.

'

He is allowed to discuss it, but he is not allowed to use terms that aren't considered appropriate anymore.

I appreciate the emotion of the situation, but it doesn't give him a free pass to post ignorant things.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

'

He is allowed to discuss it, but he is not allowed to use terms that aren't considered appropriate anymore.

I appreciate the emotion of the situation, but it doesn't give him a free pass to post ignorant things.

Okay, fair enough.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I see some inequity in the discussion of race relations. A minority group can separate themselves and profile white people with no consequences. The apology made by Harper was an example of this. We were to apologize for things a few of our forefathers did. We moreover, will be paying for those sins. But the behaviour of a ethnic group can't be held to their collective account. In fact bad behaviour by ethnic groups more often then not, causes white soul searching because somehow we must be responsible for their actions. I've seen that on this thread. It is quite frustrating and will cause some to react with sweeping generalizations.

As already mentioned, Harper apologized on behalf of Canada. Canadians come in many colours and races. "Not just White".
If it was designed to make you soul search, it should do the same to Chinese Canadians, Indian Canadians, black Canadians etc. as no one has ever been very good to Natives.
I'm not "white", but I'm glad Harper apologies on behalf of me, and I don't feel removed from the hardships Natives have faced because my skin is darker then yours.

For the bolded part, that's just not true. As I wrote in the thread earlier, my father was subject to similar incidents to the OP at the hands of skinheads many times. If we decided to profile all white people there would certainly be consequences.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by fatso

Wait. Didn't Harper apologize on behalf of all Canadians, regardless of race? Did he single out white people as being particularly guilty? And again, the apology was about acknowledging something awful in Canada's history - a story not well-known that deserves attention. I don't think it's meant to make white people feel some guilt, but like flylockshox noted, that always seems to be the presumption around here.

Further, when do white people get profiled?

All right the group they demanded an apology from was all Canadians. That doesn't change the fact that it only goes one way.

The Native nations have a prolonged history of criminal behaviour and violence towards Canadians. Women, the old and the frail have reason to fear when walking in many areas of their own communities because of members of these Native communities. They disproportionally burden our health care, social and legal systems and for the greater part do little to contribute to the greater good of Canadians. This is an on going problem; not one that was corrected long ago(like residential schools). Where is my apology? Who apologised to my cousin who was knifed and robbed waiting for transit several years ago. And why haven't these nations fixed the problems.

The point is: People who chose to profile themselves by nationality, race, sexual preference or religion and do expect special acknowledgement or consideration for their group can also expect accountability for the actions of members of their group; At least by me.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

They disproportionally burden our health care, social and legal systems and for the greater part do little to contribute to the greater good of Canadians.

Our?

I think "they" are Canadians.

When I was a kid my grandma got mugged by a couple white guys. I've had a tough time looking in the mirror ever since.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Our?

I think "they" are Canadians.

When I was a kid my grandma got mugged by a couple white guys. I've had a tough time looking in the mirror ever since.

You know exactly what he is talking about.

I don't care how non-politically correct it is....Natives do not deserve to be sanctioned off from the rest of society, nor should they be given special status. The 'reserves' were the worst thing that could happen to them.

Say what you want....but their sense of entitlement, plus the fact that they get money from the government not to mention special status has created this 'problem.'

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Our?

I think "they" are Canadians.

Yes they are and they use a disproportional amount of government services.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

When I was a kid my grandma got mugged by a couple white guys. I've had a tough time looking in the mirror ever since.

Try using a low wattage bulb and quite blaming your Grandma.

[Berger_4_]

Originally Posted by Azure

You know exactly what he is talking about.

I don't care how non-politically correct it is....Natives do not deserve to be sanctioned off from the rest of society, nor should they be given special status. The 'reserves' were the worst thing that could happen to them.

Say what you want....but their sense of entitlement, plus the fact that they get money from the government not to mention special status has created this 'problem.'

You sir are correct. That's all there is to it.

[flylock shox]

^^^ That turtle power avatar is ominous in the context of this thread...

[chris lindberg]

^
^
^
Every time Native Canadian Indians are discussed here on CalgaryPuck it turns into a bashing thread.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

You know exactly what he is talking about.

I don't care how non-politically correct it is....Natives do not deserve to be sanctioned off from the rest of society, nor should they be given special status. The 'reserves' were the worst thing that could happen to them.

Say what you want....but their sense of entitlement, plus the fact that they get money from the government not to mention special status has created this 'problem.'

I don't think the current situation was their idea in the first place. Any entitlement, as you see it, or special status was both forced on them and promised to them.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I don't think the current situation was their idea in the first place. Any entitlement, as you see it, or special status was both forced on them and promised to them.

Darn rights....so the government should be removing it.

But they won't....because it'll outrage the Native community who thinks they should be entitled to something for some dumb reason.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

Darn rights....so the government should be removing it.

The government should be removing what exactly? The deals have been signed. Should they just renege on it all now? I guess it wouldn't be the first time...

Originally Posted by Azure

But they won't....because it'll outrage the Native community who thinks they should be entitled to something for some dumb reason.

Maybe that "dumb reason" is that they signed all those treaties and whatnot that said they are entitled to get what they get?

The government doesn't care about enraging the Native community. The Native community doesn't have much of an influence, if any, on elections.

Clearly the current system isn't serving anyone well, but you can't just arbitrarily say "we don't like that deal anymore so we're not going to honour it from here on out".

Everyone bashes native Canadians for being a bunch of freeloaders but far as I can tell, they do exactly what everyone else would do in the same situation -- get what they can take and take what they were promised.

Would you do different?