Interesting quote I found from the loser of the womens match:
"The doctor actually cleared me to fight the third round but the commission said no. I wanted to continue, my corner wanted to continue. The cut likely would have opened in the third but it was under the eye. If I had to guess, I would say that they didn’t want the visual of a woman with a bloody face on CBS. They also chose not to do a post fight interview with me or to include me in the post fight news conference and after party. I think the reason for that was my beat up appearance after the fight because I was not seriously injured and was completely coherent. I am very disappointed about that but cant help but wonder how people would have responded to that, as stupid as it is.” — Kaitlin Young, on her loss to Gina Carano and resulting media snub.
I find wrestling a little boring tbqh but I will probably watch some of it. I don't know what backyard brawl you are watching but MMA is not a bareknuckle sport. If you don't understand BJJ or Muay Thai or Judo or Wrestling that is fine but that doesn't give you the right to say there is no skill involved.
I'm not a huge fan of MMA, but your right, its unfair to call the MMA a bare knuckle brawl, the really good fighters at the top are exceptionally bright in terms of understanding the game. The problem right now is with the inexperienced guys that have to really learn as they go.
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Originally Posted by Boblobla
I really don't understand your second paragraph. Are you saying that there is no tough guys off the street who got into boxing? Did you watch 'The Contender'? There are people in the NHL who went undrafted, does that mean they shouldn't be there? There are different skill sets within an organization, just because everyone doesn't have BJJ black belt or is a golden gloves boxer doesn't make them less of a competitor.
Disagree and agree with this, its pretty rare that you see a boxer that is basically a tough guy suceeding in that sport. There is a real science to boxing that doesn't exist in any other sport. Watch some of the exceptional boxers out there, not the tomato cans in the heavyweigh division, they combine footwork and hand work and body work freakishly better then anyone else. Its rare that you see a boxer that takes a beating to land a punch anymore, but if you watch punch counts vs punch landed counts you gain an understanding of how good boxers defend.
MMA and specifically UFC has done a good job of removing the freak factor that plagued them in the beginning when they did have a lot of bar brawlers and punks competing. Watch the first UFC tourney with the fat guy that invented his own martial art, or Tank Abbot or others. Boxing has those guys but they don't raise above the club level.
As far as the contender goes, those fighters didn't come off of the street, they were guys with years of training and professional records behind them. UFC until recently didn't have those requirements.
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Originally Posted by Boblobla
Kimbo Slice is a joke. I am not sitting here defending him. I am defending a sport that I have grown to love over the last 4 or 5 years. That fight was garbage and he should have lost in the second round. He is not fit to headline an event, any event. Gary Shaw (who incidently has a boxing promotion background) took a bodyguard who is struggling to get money to raise his family and lined his pockets. It is BS. Maybe in 2 or 3 years after a lot of cardio and some more time with Randy Couture and Bas Ruuten he might be a legit heavyweight.
Kimbo Slice is one of those characters that UFC fought really hard to filter out, and now after two fights he's main eventing on a competitors show, and believe me, UFC probably fuming about it because it gives the whole sport a bad name. In boxing a guy like this would loose a couple of fights, be dropped from the ratings and we'd never see him again. Kimbo Slice did more harm to MMA by winning that fight then good.
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Its rare that you see a boxer that takes a beating to land a punch anymore, but if you watch punch counts vs punch landed counts you gain an understanding of how good boxers defend.
MMA and specifically UFC has done a good job of removing the freak factor that plagued them in the beginning when they did have a lot of bar brawlers and punks competing. Watch the first UFC tourney with the fat guy that invented his own martial art, or Tank Abbot or others. Boxing has those guys but they don't raise above the club level.
As far as the contender goes, those fighters didn't come off of the street, they were guys with years of training and professional records behind them. UFC until recently didn't have those requirements.
Can you explain what punch counts vs punch landed counts means? The guys in the Contender were not fantastic boxers though. I have seen a few fights that had some of them after the show and they were not very good at all. I really hope I didn't come across as saying that boxers are without skill because they are very skilled.
Well, the pre-Dana White/Fettuchi (sp?) UFC was a different animal and that wasn't really MMA. That was a bloodsport and was banned in almost every state.
Unless Kimbo can improve his ground game and cardio.. his time in the spotlight will be over before you know it. He may be everything that UFC dosen't like.. but he does have people talking about the sport, so its not all bad.
Heres a good article defending MMA and also talks about boxing vs MMA.
That is a great article.
I believe that the death count is up to 3 now for MMA though. There was another one at an unsanctioned event and one fighter died from a heart condition and should not have passed his physical.
Can you explain what punch counts vs punch landed counts means? The guys in the Contender were not fantastic boxers though. I have seen a few fights that had some of them after the show and they were not very good at all. I really hope I didn't come across as saying that boxers are without skill because they are very skilled.
Most fights now track the number of punches thrown versus the actual number of punches that are landed. If you watch a very good fighter its rare that he's tagged with 10% of the punches thrown at him. I saw a fight a few years ago that was a 15 round fight where a boxer threw over 300 punches and landed 10 actual blows. A good economical fighter will throw a low amount of punches but has the inate ability to land a great deal of them, but well trained boxers are trained to think defense first and counter punch second, they're not throwing punches just to throw punches.
Sometimes people get carried away when they're watching a fight where a lot of punches are thrown, but very few land. One of the most exconomical fighters was Ali, when he threw a jab, you know that it landed, when he set up for a punch you know he'd figured out an opening.
Thats why I like watching boxing.
I agree on the contender, not all of them were great boxers, but all of them had a career in boxing before they got on the show. We didn't see a lot of silly slap fights and all of that stuff. But what we did see was the bad fighters getting overwhelmed and off of the show very quickly.
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Originally Posted by Boblobla
Well, the pre-Dana White/Fettuchi (sp?) UFC was a different animal and that wasn't really MMA. That was a bloodsport and was banned in almost every state.
True, it was promoted as no holds fighting with very few rules, and while White as much of a jerk as he is, came in, he cleaned up the sports, its just to bad that there are still people that see it for the Kimbo Slices' and the Ken Shamrocks and the Tank Abbots. But as the demand increases, the pressure will be on to find more character based fighters.
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Which is better? I love boxing, and probably will never watch MMA. I'm also 41 years old. Boxing was awesome in the 1970s and 1980s. Should have stayed on network TV, and not gone to PPV.
Which is better: Mixed martial arts or boxing? The young upstart, or the grizzled veteran who has been around the block a couple of times?
To settle this important debate, we're taking the fight to the streets, pitting ESPN The Magazine's Tim Struby against colleague Ryan Hockensmith. The showdown begins today at noon ET. After 12 rounds of verbal jousting, we'll put some ice on the wounds and let SportsNation determine the winner.
True, it was promoted as no holds fighting with very few rules, and while White as much of a jerk as he is, came in, he cleaned up the sports, its just to bad that there are still people that see it for the Kimbo Slices' and the Ken Shamrocks and the Tank Abbots. But as the demand increases, the pressure will be on to find more character based fighters.
If you look at the current champions (Anderson Silva, GSP, BJ Penn).. they are all fighters who are very well rounded, and not just brawlers like Kimbo. I think that shows to the world that if you wanna be on top, you need to be more than just a back alley bully.
I think most fans, in general, appreciate a fighter like GSP over someone like Kimbo.
The CBS fights were a joke. The more I see Kimbo fight the more apparent it is that Elite XC is protecting him. Not to mention Gina Carano, that fight was also stopped too early, she was however dominating. I think a lot of fights were cut early because it was on CBS.
Anybody who has seen James Thompson fight in pride FC knows that:
A) He is not very good, barely mediocre
B) He has probably taken more punishment than that in EVERYSINGLE fight he has been in.
Someone posted that the look on Thompson's face convinced him, but Thompson always looks slightly out of it. Watch his fight with Don Frye on dailymotion.
Since when has a fight EVER been stopped with a guy still standing. A joke.
Someone pointed out that heavyweights look like brawlers, but I think the same can be said for boxing. They are bigger guys, get tired faster, and are a little sloppier. But you watch Alexander Emelianenko, Fedor Emelianenko, Kharitonov, Arlovksi even Josh Barnett and tell me they look sloppy. (Lot of russians in that list LOL.)
For those claiming that boxing is more of a science I disagree 100%. If those of you who have clearly watched very little mma got an actual understanding of the chess match involved in pulling out a submission you'd see that mma is probably more technical than boxing. You don't only have to worry about the guys hands, but his feet, and his submission and grappling skills. (Don't give me crap about how they aren't as good standing as boxers, because there are many guys who trained boxing or kickboxing for 10-15 years, and then learn the ground game enough to defend themselves. They are just as good standing.)
These guys have to be very good at all aspects of the game. I sit and watch a fight and love to see submissions pulled off. I have friends who hated the ground fighting at first but after watching more fights, definately have an appreciation for the submissions and how difficult they are to pull off.
Also someone posted that Werdum is a gnp guy. He's actually more of a submission jiu jitsu fighter. VERY VERY good on the ground.
For the record I like both boxing and MMA, but I find MMA to be every bit as technical if not more technical than boxing.
Last edited by AFireInside; 06-02-2008 at 04:42 PM.
Which is better? I love boxing, and probably will never watch MMA. I'm also 41 years old. Boxing was awesome in the 1970s and 1980s. Should have stayed on network TV, and not gone to PPV.
I can see why some people think boxing is more entertaining than MMA. I am the opposite but I don't think that MMA is better than boxing. I just like it more.
Also anyone wondering whether they are protecting kimbo watch this clear slip up by the Gary Shaw (owner of elite XC??) at the press conference. Mentions that Josh Thompson has been taken to the hospital (obviously to make it appear that he was injured and the stoppage was legit.) and just as he says Thompson is in an ambulance, the camera pans over to Thompson coming into the room with a drink in his hand, clearly not injured.... Hilarious.
True, it was promoted as no holds fighting with very few rules, and while White as much of a jerk as he is, came in, he cleaned up the sports, its just to bad that there are still people that see it for the Kimbo Slices' and the Ken Shamrocks and the Tank Abbots. But as the demand increases, the pressure will be on to find more character based fighters.
That's where The Ultimate Fighter TV show comes in. TUF gives you a chance to get to know the fighters a little bit. Rome was riffing on this today (I think). By the time one of these guys shows up at a PPV or in some other promotion, you can go "Oh, yah. I remember him. He's the one that peed on the other guy while he slept." Or "Oh, yah. He's the guy that eats that seaweed diet."
That kind of character is completely acceptable in my books. If you're hinting at guys coming out with capes and luchador masks then, for the sake of all who care about the sport, I hope you are wrong.
WEWT, I was waiting for someone to mention TUF so I could go off.
I watch TUF and I have watched every season. Some are better than others but I want to know where the UFC gets off tying the belt up for 8months to a year while the show is filming. It has been revealed that Mir and Big Nog are the coaches for the next season of TUF which means we wont see a heavyweight title fight in over a years. That is complete BULL.
That's where The Ultimate Fighter TV show comes in. TUF gives you a chance to get to know the fighters a little bit. Rome was riffing on this today (I think). By the time one of these guys shows up at a PPV or in some other promotion, you can go "Oh, yah. I remember him. He's the one that peed on the other guy while he slept." Or "Oh, yah. He's the guy that eats that seaweed diet."
That kind of character is completely acceptable in my books. If you're hinting at guys coming out with capes and luchador masks then, for the sake of all who care about the sport, I hope you are wrong.
Thats what I'm saying will happen, probably not with the UFC which to me has done a fabulous job of promoting itself, except the the Ortiz/White feud which to me was pretty transparent.
But somewhere along the line some of these smaller organizations that are desparate for their own piece of the market are going to find a way to meld Pro Wrestling and Mixed Martial arts into a character based/story based theme with Legit fights.
Years ago the WWE tried to do it with a series of toughman contests, which featured wrestlers legitimately boxing each other, with fake angry interviews and story lines. Unfortunately for Vince, he had already decided on a winner in Doctor Death Steve Williams who was a legitimate tough guy. Vince was banking on Williams winning the thing and pushing him to the moon in a way to legitimize sports entertainment, only to see his hand picked champion knocked out in his first fight to a scrub wrestler named Billy Gunn.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard could beat stronger opponents with their minds. Does this happen in MMA, or does the strongest guy pretty much always win?
There are many examples of this. That is what I love about the UFC. There is ALWAYS upsets. Gonzaga KTFO Cro Cop. Matt Serra catching GSP. Even in the most recent PPV the Machida v Ortiz match was a pleasure to watch. Seeing Lyoto muscle Tito around even though he was clearly the smaller fighter was great.
Thats what I'm saying will happen, probably not with the UFC which to me has done a fabulous job of promoting itself, except the the Ortiz/White feud which to me was pretty transparent.
But somewhere along the line some of these smaller organizations that are desparate for their own piece of the market are going to find a way to meld Pro Wrestling and Mixed Martial arts into a character based/story based theme with Legit fights.
Years ago the WWE tried to do it with a series of toughman contests, which featured wrestlers legitimately boxing each other, with fake angry interviews and story lines. Unfortunately for Vince, he had already decided on a winner in Doctor Death Steve Williams who was a legitimate tough guy. Vince was banking on Williams winning the thing and pushing him to the moon in a way to legitimize sports entertainment, only to see his hand picked champion knocked out in his first fight to a scrub wrestler named Billy Gunn.
Good point. The CBS show already put on display all those fireworks and dancing girls. Heck, even the video I posted above of that Japanese promotion was a lot more glitzy than the UFC.
