China needs to chill out. Big time.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Domer

Would you still believe the Chinese propaganda??? If they have nothing to hide? why wouldnt they give free access to the foreign journalist and let the whole world see the TRUTH. Why do they have to censor internet and block youtube

I thought it was appropriate to post this link Lanny posted, from the other thread:

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/AP_Pre..._for_0319.html

Just China ... right?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I thought it was appropriate to post this link Lanny posted, from the other thread:

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/AP_Pre..._for_0319.html

Just China ... right?

Except this thread isn't about the US.

Its about China.

[Phanuthier]

My point was just this, all big countries do this. I just don't get why everyone is all over China and how they will fail in the Oly's because of censorship. I'm surprised at some of the responses here... we all attack USA cause its an easy target, but never so much on a conglomerate.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by Azure

Except this thread isn't about the US.

Its about China.

Maybe you should arrest him.

I find it relatable. Authoritarian Government on one side of the world protecting their interests in the same way a democratic one does on the world. Wait, we're still calling in a democracy, right?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

My point was just this, all big countries do this. I just don't get why everyone is all over China and how they will fail in the Oly's because of censorship. I'm surprised at some of the responses here... we all attack USA cause its an easy target, but never so much on a conglomerate.

I never said they will fail with the Olympics.

In fact, they'll probably do a fabulous job.

But I don't see the point in trying to deflect the issue by saying the US does it too.

Or that a lot of big countries do it.

[tjinaz]

When the US was tearing itself apart in the 1960s the press was there front and center recording and reporting it all.

Where was the Chinese press during Tiananmen Square or in Tibet for that matter?

Still think they are equaivalent?

[Domer]

In a startling new revelation, It is learned by British agency that Chinese sent in spies dressed as monks to start the violence so that they will get an excuse to crush and jail the pro-independence protesters. But the only miscalculation was how the protest was going to spread out to the rest of the areas inhabited by Tibetans.
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/2306

Now, they are going from the footages of protest that we see on CBC and CTV and putting those faces on the wanted list. so when those journalist take those close-up pictures of the demonstrators, It scares me for their life.

Domer

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Domer

In a startling new revelation, It is learned by British agency that Chinese sent in spies dressed as monks to start the violence so that they will get an excuse to crush and jail the pro-independence protesters. But the only miscalculation was how the protest was going to spread out to the rest of the areas inhabited by Tibetans.
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/2306

Now, they are going from the footages of protest that we see on CBC and CTV and putting those faces on the wanted list. so when those journalist take those close-up pictures of the demonstrators, It scares me for their life.

Domer

I find it more plausible that the Chinese would plant pseudo monks to make it look like the monks started the violence than for a true Buddhist monk to actually engage in violence. Besides, this is a tactic used everywhere nowadays, even in Canada as those Quebec Police shills illustrated at that leaders summit in Quebec last summer.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

I find it more plausible that the Chinese would plant pseudo monks to make it look like the monks started the violence than for a true Buddhist monk to actually engage in violence. Besides, this is a tactic used everywhere nowadays, even in Canada as those Quebec Police shills illustrated at that leaders summit in Quebec last summer.

And... when is our government going to get some balls and announce an official boycott of the Beijing Olympics...

[troutman]

Originally Posted by peter12

And... when is our government going to get some balls and announce an official boycott of the Beijing Olympics...

I think we should boycott Beijing too.

[Phanuthier]

Do you guys ever stop to wonder how boycotting Beijing and/or their Olympics will hurt Canada?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Do you guys ever stop to wonder how boycotting Beijing and/or their Olympics will hurt Canada?

How will it hurt Canada?

[Locke]

I for one will stop eating Chinese food immediately.

Is Tibetan food any good?

and BTW, I dont know if I'm pointing out the obvious, but boycotts, especially on an international scale dont really work unless you have a huge majority of people behind you.

Seeing as how China has the huge majority of people and the rest want China's money I dont see how this will be pulled off successfully.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Locke

Seeing as how China has the huge majority of people and the rest want China's money I dont see how this will be pulled off successfully.

Exactly

The best way to make your opinion known is through probably Amnesty International. There is no way Canada will boycott the USA. Boycott China and we might as well call ourselves "Cuba V2.0"

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Locke

I for one will stop eating Chinese food immediately.

Is Tibetan food any good?

and BTW, I dont know if I'm pointing out the obvious, but boycotts, especially on an international scale dont really work unless you have a huge majority of people behind you.

Seeing as how China has the huge majority of people and the rest want China's money I dont see how this will be pulled off successfully.

It doesn't matter if it doesn't "work"... What matters to me is the moral stance that Canada would take on boycotting the Chinese Olympics. Namely, we do not support the suppression of protest by lethal means.

We boycotted the Invasion of Iraq, didn't stop it from happening, but it was still the right thing to do.

[TangerZ]

Hi everyone first of all this has to be broken up into to posts, so please read the following one if you have time as it is quite long. I am also a Tibetan poster on CP. I just wanted to post in response to some of the comments on here, not in an adversarial way (please don't take it as such), but just to get the Tibetan viewpoint out there in relation to some comments.

First of all on the point of reviving the Buddhist theocracy that was in Tibet pre-1949/59, unequivocably NO. The Tibetans since coming into exile have instituted a democratic government in exile. The 200,000 strong exile community (figures of exiles would be larger if we didn't have to climb the Himalayan mountain ranges to escape from Chinese soldiers *please see the youtube video of how we Tibetans escape Tibet, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2ImZlolH08 ) vote on their representives in parliament, and we Tibetans here in Calgary also vote electing a representative for North American Tibetans. With the recent influx of Tibetans refugees to Canada, the government is considering adding an additional representative for the North America. At first, when Tibetans escaped, many government officials were the ministers in Tibet, but now everyone has changed. Also, once Tibetans reach a solution with China, the Tibetan government in exile would effectively dissolve, and as per the wishes of the Dalai Lama and the people, the people of Tibet would choose their government in Tibet. Contrary to Chinese opinion, the Dalai Lama is not restoring his power. In stark contrast, he wants to retire as soon as possible, and always mentions the Tibetan freedom struggle is about 6 million Tibetans not the Dalai Lama. He has even stated that the Tibetan people should decide if the Dalai Lama should continue, even in a spiritual role. If you read his teachings, you will see how moderate, progressive he is. The Chinese claims of theocracy are moreso related to former Dalai Lamas. The current Dalai Lama was enthroned as Dalai Lama when the Chinese came to Tibet, and although he was 16 (enthroned two years before the general age of 18 for Tibetan leader because of the invasion) he had ideas on democratizing Tibetan rule, but alas the Chinese came just when he was enthroned and no such changes could take place in the face of Communist aggression. On the whole, the Chinese will say how Tibet was a feudal theocracy, darker than Europe, fine say what you want, my parents and family friends lived there and according to them it wasn't, but yes there were serfs and it wasn't perfect, still you can't come take over your neighbours country for that reason when your not welcome.

On the point of the historical status of Tibet, this is rather complicated. The Tibetans and Chinese can go on day and night about this with "facts". I will present both viewpoints. The Chinese will say that Tibet became part of China in two main ways. In the 13th century, Kublai Khan the Mongol came to power in China. China was overtaken by him as the Mongol Empire expanded, and the unification of China was thereafter sought. Tibet has many links to the Mongols (In and of itself, Tibet-Mongol relations are dynamic). Tibetans first of all look most alike Mongol/Bhutanese in terms of facial features out of all the Asian ethnicities. Tibet has always shared a preist patron relationship with both China and Mongolia for time immemorial. This preist patron relation developed upon spiritual and advisory need from China and Mongolia and help in protection of Tibet against upheaval or outside invasion militarily by China and Mongolia (this was when Tibet dissintegrated it's military when they became Buddhist, ie. nominal army whereas before Tibet was a warring empire of Asia). At any rate, essentially Tibet due to their close relations with the Mongol empire, are stated by Chinese to have been part of China when Kublai Khan took over China. The Tibetans will state that Tibet took over parts of China in sporatic eras of China's history and successfully invaded the capital and installed a puppet emperor in the period of the Tang emperor. Additionally, the Mongol empire was vast, much more than the reaches of Tibet. Tibetans claim, why not claim other countries of Asia that fell under the Mongol empire. Tibet was conveniently claimed due to its Buddhist regime that replaced the former warring empire of Tibet, because Tibet was weak in terms of military might. Why not Vietnam or Korea, Tibet was just too weak militarily. Moreover, what did Tibet's history of centuires prior mean? Absolutely nothing? Can Tibet not claim China during it's period of weakness, because Tibetans invaded and installed their regime?

The next point China raises as to how Tibet became a part of China is really reaching, however it must be stated as it is one of their two main points. During the time of the Tibetan King Songtsen Gampo, Tibet was bestowed upon a Chinese Princess named, Princess Wen Chen. She was a Buddhist, and really helped Buddhism flourish in Tibet, and is still revered to this day by Tibetans although she is Chiense (a sign that we can get along under the right circumstances China). Anyhow, due to the Tibetan leader accepting her, we also became inextricably linked the motherland, and in another way a part of China. Now do I even have to refute this, or is this stretching the truth. The fact of the matter is, Tibet should be part of Nepal as well, since the Tibetan King in fact accepted a Nepalese princess first in the days of Kings accepting several princesses in Tibet. During this period, and several others, pillars stating treatises in Tibet and China were errected. A few still stand to this day, and were left undestroyed during the cultural revolution. They state, "Chinese will live happily in the land of China, and Tibetans will live happily in the land of Tibet". One even stands enshrined with Tibetan scarfs in Tibet's capital Lhasa in the main Tibetan square near the holy Jokhang Temple. How can they refute this, China cannot take Tibet when it is weak and sign such things when it is strong. Nextly, at the very least, in 1912 Tibetan leader the 13th Dalai Lama(the current is the 14th) expelled all Chinese from Tibet, proclaimed Tibet's independence, instituted postage system, currency, signed treatis with other countries, governed a population within their borders and such and by all intents and purposes, the Chinese don't even refute this period as they say they were ripe with internal strife and Tibet ran autonomously, as stated by the U.N. International Commission of Jurists, Tibet met all the requirements of a nation state from 1912-1950. Tibet was not bothered by the world during both world wars, and became the most forbidden and isolated country in the world. This is where all those mythical shangrila type stories of Tibet came from, due to it's geographic and isolation in terms of no foreigners. Finally on this point of historical status, again I will go back to the point that Tibetans and Chinese can argue all day and all night about Tibet, but in the end, WHO WERE THE PEOPLE LIVING IN TIBET PRE-INVASION period? Tibetans! This question has never ever been answered by any Chinese I met. They go back to historical arguments, but the fact is Canada can't claim Mexico since the 13th century, not have a population base there, and then in 2008 move millions of settlers in, preposterous right? Chinese will not claim they had relatives living in Tibet before 1950 unless they were military personnel. There were extremely few in Tibet, not millions nor hundreds of thousands. The few diplomatic memoirs of the time and Chinese themselves will verify this, it was closed off to the world and Chinese themselves. In the future, it would be okay to hear Chinese say, oh my aunt lived in Tibet since 1950 or my grandma was born there, sure ok. However, pre-1950 Tibetans were the ones who lived there, so how dare China claim our land and not have lived the land, breathed the air. When China invaded, our people fought hard and long, we fought with nothing but our kitchen knives and a few CIA drops of arms. Since Tibet knew the land well, and the resistance volunteer forces sprung up, Tibet's army of thousands, became hundreds of thousands of ill-prepared volunteers. Of course we were massacred and lost our country, perhaps forever. Many youth, really regret our Buddhist government then, having a small army. Again on this point of the CIA, China always claims imperialist forces, when Tibet only had Robert Ford, a radio operator and Heinrich Harrer the Austrian mountaineer in Tibet as the foreigners, and the U.S. was looking to contain Communism as Tibet asked for help (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOhDBo6x2ZY part 1 of 7).

Wow, it's quite long right now sorry, so I will touch on one other point before concluding. Some people have brought of the recent spat of protests. Yes they have been characterized as violent, as the Chinese refer to it as mobs beating, burning, smashing, damaging and looting. Yes, this is wrong, we do not condone that, however we have some issues to raise. Tibetans have been marginalized in their own country for 50 years since the occupation and the Tibetans led by the Nobel Peace laureate the Dalai Lama have been peaceful ever since after the invasion. China would you rather you have Iraqis or Palestinian like violence? One has to admit the outpouring of sympathy in Western nations is due to Tibetans following the Dalai Lama's peaceful path to freedom.

[TangerZ]

Actually up until now, Tibetans have been pleading with the world, and our Chinese brothers and sisters to pay attention to what is happening in Tibet. We have used non-violence to the fullest extent, but many frustrated youth are wondering where that has got Tibet. We urged the world to let Tibet show the world non-violence could be used as a model to the world on how to achieve freedom. However many point to Tibet's millions of supporters, celebrity fads, freedom concerts, words of encouragement from politicians as the only gain Tibet has had. Yes China you are building roads, developing Tibet, modernising it, but Tibetans have only ever asked for their culture to be protected, and their people to survive with basic human rights and dignity (even less offered than to your own Chinese comrades in Beijing or Hong Kong). The recent protests, which seem targeted at Chinese shops and businesses and bringing down the Chinese flag and raising the banned Tibetan national flag (which is a punishable offence in China along with the Dalai Lama's photo for ten years in jail), are essentially the boiling over a longheld resentment to Chinese rule and China ignoring the Dalai Lama's peaceful calls for negotiation. A simple google will show you that every year in Tibet, on March 10th, Tibetans commemorate our national uprising day, and many of those who dare to peacefully protest are whisked away to prison with horrid descriptions of life in there. This March 10th was not unlike any other, and in the morning Tibetan monks (the vanguards of our culture and freedom struggle as they have no family and attachment and thus can protest and sacrifice their lives without worry, whereas lay Tibetans have more worry) were stopped and taken away to the infamous Drapchi prison (see Drapchi prison writeups by Amnesty International). This is and another protest the day after is what sparked the riots, soon the lay people and youth joined and tensions were high, and the violence errupted. Many Tibetans have been killed with the military buildup in Tibet recently as well while reporters and all foreigners have been kicked out of the country(graphic images be warned): http://www.phayul.com/photogallery/flash/2008/







Who are you waiting for the Tibetan Osama Bin Laden? Would you rather negotiate peace with that? The Dalai Lama is China's supreme opportunity, as he is the one sole and legitimate leader of Tibet, and the Tibetan people will listen to his authority no matter their feelings or desires for true independence. He is so wise, and guides us to the point that borders are just imaginary, we just need to protect our ancient civilization and safeguard our human rights, and he also points out we may benefit economically from China. So isn't that moderate, please Chinese people, research yourselves, not hindered by your feelings of nationalism or the Chinese governments obvious propaganda, but objectively, and come to your own conclusion.


I have been bringing up the Tibetan issue for a long time now. In junior high and high school here in Calgary, I consistently went class to class doing presentations whenever a social studies or english class was interested. Some Chinese thought I was racist but they took it from a nationalistic perspective sorry to say, the vast majority of non-Chinese were sympathetic and the teachers were always extremely warm to the Tibetan cause. As I grew older, I realized how to better get the message out. It can be summed up as such, at the end of the day, irrespective of debating historical status of Tibet, the Chinese have the land. Although the Chinese dispute there is a problem, obviously the Tibetans are still unhappy and deeply resentful (why else would they protest knowing that they face death, torture and military might). Tibetans want freedom at the end of the day. The right to protect their 2000 year old civilization and culture, and ensure the survival of their people against a perceived cultural genocide. When I look back at the Chinese students that thought I was racist, I want to go back in time and tell them it's not anti-Chinese, it's not pro-Tibetan, it's quite simply pro-justice. Tibetans enjoy so much sympathy from the West and the world's people in general, it's unreal and we are eternally grateful (although the Chinese twist this sympathy and say the West doesn't want China to rise or something and that the Western media is not fair to China). However, we need and are greatly encouraged most by Chinese support, hope that surprises you pleasantly. For instance, when I talk and I get a Chinese supporter, I feel most happy. If you really educate yourselves on the issue, then you will certainly see that the Dalai Lama is no "wolf with a human face (stated by China's Xinhua state newspaper this week,google it)", he is indeed China's greatest asset, their greatest opportunity to clean up their international image. He is providing a middle-way solution, which allows for Tibet to remain within China, but ensures the Tibetans their human rights, freedom and protection of culture/religion. It's simply about survival and although Tibetans are recieving some support from softliners in China's Communisty party, support from scholarly people, we need regular Chinese to understand where the Tibetans are coming from, and don't take every Tibetan incident as an assault on your nationalism. The Dalai Lama always calls the Chinese his brothers and sisters, and tells the Tibetan people, no matter the outcome we have to live together side by side. He tempers the Tibetan resentment with ideas that the nation-state is becoming obsolete, and what we really need is just our freedom within China. There was one meeting when many Chinese students at Harvard had a private meeting with His Holiness. They were mainly from mainland China, and initially held the normal Chinese view towards Tibet and the Dalai Lama. After the meeting, they all left crying and vowed to help change the view of Chinese people, as they really understood where were coming from. I know Chinese people are proud of your country, but when every western country or the Tibetans are pointing out the wrongdoings in Tibet, please I implore you, it is not against China, there is no need to be so defensive, we need to really push the Communist regime to change it's policies there as well as in China for the better of humanity, it is much more repressive than Beijing, Shanghai or the rest of China, who enjoy some changes in the face of globalization. If you still don't believe me, I would be 100% willing to meet you face to face, and we can go to Tibet, but this time myself as the Chinese person and yourself as the Tibetan. You can hold a Tibetan flag or shout something in the main Tibetan street around the holy Jokhang temple and within minutes be spotted by the many cameras, and have the Peoples reaction unit quickly sweep you away into a van and taken to Tibet's famous Drapchi prison. I 100% guarantee this. Please believe us, us Tibetans in exile, although myself not political by nature, are inclined to speak out. The Dalai Lama has told us, and we ourselves understand we are the ambassadors of our people out here. There's so few of us (I was one of the first 200 Tibetans born in North America in the 80's), and we have to get the word out for those who can't in Tibet. Lastly, I implore everyone interested, to really study BOTH sides of the issue and then come to your view on Tibet-China. It is an extremely interesting read and contentious issue, but only after educating yourself can you come to a truly respectable opinion (either for China or for Tibet), and definitely your resolve will become deeper on this issue. Thank you for taking the time to read this if you did, and sorry if I bored you or offended in some places (I haven't gone over this lenghty bit twice ), but I really wanted to let people know. Thank you on behalf of Tibetans everywhere.


p.s.: I forgot about the boycott of the Olympics. Yes most Tibetans are supporting this but some are not. For instance His Holiness the Dalai Lama believes the Chinese should host the Olympics. He is always so warm to them, but generally yes the Tibetans do not support the priviledge of the games for the China, nothing against the people. I for one do support China having the games as a Tibetan, I think that it is a matter of a great deal of pride for their people. However, the spotlight during the games can also be shared by Tibet, and if the media continues to cover Tibet at the same time this is also great, because I have been warning people for years this will boil over, and we as the world will have failed if we let this peaceful cause turn violent like other conflicts in the world. Please negotiate and support a solution with China, we need Chinese to support a negotiated solution as well, stop listening to your nationalistic sentiment and the government. It is possible for a middle way solution.

http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/vide...t_beijing.html

Thanks for the suggestion Azure, I will come back later to include quotes, but there was a 10000 character limit, so I'll just post again with quotes.

[Azure]

Okay, long post, but very interesting.

It also looks like you were quoting a few different people in that last post.

I don't know if you know how to include the original point you're responding too, but it would make more sense if you could.

[troutman]

Thank you TangerZ.

[TibHockeyPlayer]

The latest updates on the situation:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.a...d+risen+to+140