Landover Baptist Pastor Preaches To Atheists

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Wrong! The Bible is the best selling book of all time and is consistantly the best seller year after year.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200...061218fa_fact1

The familiar observation that the Bible is the best-selling book of all time obscures a more startling fact: the Bible is the best-selling book of the year, every year. Calculating how many Bibles are sold in the United States is a virtually impossible task, but a conservative estimate is that in 2005 Americans purchased some twenty-five million Bibles—twice as many as the most recent Harry Potter book. The amount spent annually on Bibles has been put at more than half a billion dollars.

You didnt answer my question...do you think that even if this meant a damned thing, which it doesnt...what % of the bibles purchased go towards replacing the millions of damaged bibles in all of the Christian churches?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by flames85

the one thing that always bothers me is why Christians have to always prove that God exists. never that atheists have to prove God doesn't. I believe there will never be proof that he existed or didn't exist. It will always boil down to Faith.

Slightly off topic... i always wondered why atheists celebrate Christmas/Easter? anyone care to answer that for me?

Who says we "celebrate" those holidays? We get them off because our governments give us that time. Id take the Jewish and Islamic holidays off as well if I could. Heck if we had an Atheist holiday I dont think many Christians would balk at taking the day off. I dont go to a church and celebrate the birth or death of Jesus. My family doesnt discuss the birth or death of Jesus and we dont ritualize ourselves with any Christian tradition or pageantry....unless of course you think the Turkey and trimmings was part of the Christian tradition.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Who says we "celebrate" those holidays? We get them off because our governments give us that time. Id take the Jewish and Islamic holidays off as well if I could. Heck if we had an Atheist holiday I dont think many Christians would balk at taking the day off. I dont go to a church and celebrate the birth or death of Jesus. My family doesnt discuss the birth or death of Jesus and we dont ritualize ourselves with any Christian tradition or pageantry....unless of course you think the Turkey and trimmings was part of the Christian tradition.

wonderful. you stated that you don't celebrate. the question was why do some atheists celebrate christmas/easter? yes i do know athesists that do. Do you buy gifts and do you have Turkey/Trimmings just at any other random times besides christmas/easter??

[Azure]

Originally Posted by T@T

Fact - earth is older than 5 million years
Fact - Adam and Eve never happened
Fact - Man isn't the most successfull creature the earth has known

Fact - none of what you have said has anything to do with proving/disproving religion/God.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by flames85

the one thing that always bothers me is why Christians have to always prove that God exists. never that atheists have to prove God doesn't. I believe there will never be proof that he existed or didn't exist. It will always boil down to Faith.

Slightly off topic... i always wondered why atheists celebrate Christmas/Easter? anyone care to answer that for me?

because that's just how science works. why are the rules for god different than the rules for EVERYTHING else? do you believe in Bigfoot just because we can't prove he doesn't exist? how about aliens, you're not going to see the scientific community proclaim that intelligent life does exist elsewhere in the universe just because they have faith it does. the law works the exact same way, burden of proof lies with the accuser

if you want to try and convince me that god exists, then you better be prepared to show me solid proof that in fact he does. if not then you're no different in my eyes than the people on those discovery channel shows who try to "prove" that aliens, ghosts, bigfoot, etc exist

[MarchHare]

unless of course you think the Turkey and trimmings was part of the Christian tradition.

The decoration of evergreen trees, holly, feasting, gift-giving, the burning of yule logs, and many other things we associate with Christmas actually come from pre-Christianity pagan solstice celebrations anyway.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by flames85

wonderful. you stated that you don't celebrate. the question was why do some atheists celebrate christmas/easter? yes i do know athesists that do. Do you buy gifts and do you have Turkey/Trimmings just at any other random times besides christmas/easter??

I guess you should ask those other Atheists why they celebrate...I cant speak for them.
Of course I have turkey at other times...and ham and roast beef. Is a turkey part of the Christian tradition? Did Joseph buy Mary gifts when Jesus was born? Do you think there was really 3 wise men bringing gifts? Was Jesus actually born on Dec 25th? Was Jesus actually born? Was there a virgin in this episode?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by flames85

wonderful. you stated that you don't celebrate. the question was why do some atheists celebrate christmas/easter? yes i do know athesists that do. Do you buy gifts and do you have Turkey/Trimmings just at any other random times besides christmas/easter??

In Western society, Christmas has evolved to become much more of a secular, cultural celebration than a religious one. There's nothing innately religious about exchanging gifts with loved ones and gathering together for a feast. And as I noted in my previous post, many of the things that are now part of the Christmas tradition have nothing at all to do with the birth of Jesus and are actually hold-overs from a time when European pagans celebrated the Winter solstice.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by flames85

wonderful. you stated that you don't celebrate. the question was why do some atheists celebrate christmas/easter? yes i do know athesists that do. Do you buy gifts and do you have Turkey/Trimmings just at any other random times besides christmas/easter??

Christmas has gone beyond a christian holiday (wasn't it the pagans who invented the christmas tree?). i don't celebrate the birth of christ, because i don't believe he ever existed. i celebrate a time of year where it's customary to be kind to your fellow man, spend time with family and exchange gifts with your loved ones. religion doesn't factor into my view of christmas one bit

[Azure]

Originally Posted by photon

Not at all, some of the writings had content that clearly went against the doctrines that eventually became Christianty.

The Gospel of Thomas is one that clearly had a gnostic slant, doesn't teach a physical resurrection, etc..

And the Gospel of Phillip has an obvious lean towards Mary Magdalene being Jesus' wife....although the word 'companion' can be interpreted in other ways.

Is there something wrong with that? No, not to me. But it really wouldn't make any sense to put the Gospel of Phillip into the Bible, and completely stray off the original topic.

You are right that Thomas didn't teach the physical resurrection, but he did mention a spiritual resurrection.

And it may have had the gnostic slant, but that certainly doesn't mean it can be accounted for as a 'gnostic' writing.

It is unique in that it is ostensibly written from the point of view of Didymus Judas Thomas, one of the twelve apostles of Jesus, and claims to contain special revelations and parables made only to Thomas. It is further unique in that the gospel is no more than a collection of Jesus' sayings and parables, and contains no narrative account of his life, which is something that all four canonical gospels include.

Again, there is nothing wrong with the Gospel of Thomas. I find it every way as interesting as the Bible, but personally I feel the Bible/NT was put together to focus on a single point. The birth, teachings, and death of Jesus Christ, and how it effects Christians.

Adding the Gospel of Thomas would have been straying off topic, and the quote above clearly points out the difference, not in teaching or theology, but in the content between what Thomas supposedly wrote, and what the 4 main gospels contain.

Not knowing who wrote a book didn't stop books from being in the canon, the 4 gospels are all anonymous.

Point taken.

[Cheese]

For its first three centuries, the Christian church knew no birthday for its savior. During the 4th century there was much argument about adoption of a date. Some favored the popular date of the Koreion, when the divine Virgin gave birth to the new Aeon in Alexandria. (Joseph Campbell, The Mythic Image, 1974). Now called Twelfth Night or Epiphany, this date is still the official nativity in Armenian churches, and celebrated with more pomp than Christmas by the Greek Orthodox. (C. A. Miles, Christmas Customs and Traditions, 1975).

Roman churchmen tended to favor the Mithraic Winter-Solstice festival called Dies Natalis Solis Invictus, Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. (Salomon Reinach, Orpheus, 1930). Blended with the Greek sun-festival of the Helia by the Emperor Aurelian, this December 25 nativity also honored such gods as Attis, Dionysus, Osiris, Syrian Baal, and other versions of the solar son of man who bore such titles as Light of the World, Sun of Righteousness, and Savior. (Homer Smith, Man and His Gods, 1952).

Most pagan Mysteries celebrated the birth of the Divine Child at the Winter Solstice. Norsemen celebrated the birthday of their Lord, Frey, at the nadir of the sun in the darkest days of winter, known to them as Yule. Early in the 4th century the Roman church adopted December 25 because the people were used to calling it a god's birthday. But eastern churches refused to honor it until 375 A.D. (Sir James Frazer, The Golden Bough). The fiction that some record existed in the land of Jesus's alleged birth certainly could not be upheld, for the church of Jerusalem continued to ignore the official date until the 7th Century. (Miles, Christmas Customs and Traditions).

Trappings such as Yule logs, gifts, lights, mistletoe, holly, carols, feasts and processions were altogether pagan. They were drawn from worship of the Goddess as Mother of the Divine Child. Christmas trees evolved from the pinea silva, pine groves attached to temples of the Great Mother...

Christmas celebrations remained so obviously pagan over the years that many churchmen bitterly denounced their "carnal pomp and jollity." Polydor Virgil said "Dancing, masques, mummeries, stageplays, and other such Christmas disorders now in use with Christians, were derived from these Roman Saturnalian and Bacchanalian festivals; which should cause all pious Christians eternally to abominate them." (W. C. Hazlitt, Faiths and Folklore of the British Isles, 1965). Puritans in 17th century Massachusetts tried to ban Christmas altogether because of its overt heathenism. (Claudia de Lys, The Giant Book of Superstitions, 1979). Inevitably, the attempt failed.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Wrong! The Bible is the best selling book of all time and is consistantly the best seller year after year.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200...061218fa_fact1

The familiar observation that the Bible is the best-selling book of all time obscures a more startling fact: the Bible is the best-selling book of the year, every year. Calculating how many Bibles are sold in the United States is a virtually impossible task, but a conservative estimate is that in 2005 Americans purchased some twenty-five million Bibles—twice as many as the most recent Harry Potter book. The amount spent annually on Bibles has been put at more than half a billion dollars.

Half a billion dollars, eh? That's a lot of money, but it's nothing compared to the 13.3 billion they spent on pornography in 2006.

What exactly are you trying to prove with this line of reasoning, anyway? That bible sales = validation of your beliefs? It doesn't work that way.

Oh yeah, and I have at least 4 bibles here in my house. They were all free.

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by flames85

the one thing that always bothers me is why Christians have to always prove that God exists. never that atheists have to prove God doesn't. I believe there will never be proof that he existed or didn't exist. It will always boil down to Faith.

Slightly off topic... i always wondered why atheists celebrate Christmas/Easter? anyone care to answer that for me?

Here's your answer to that question. Just skim through the top half of my post. The answer is in the bottom half.

Originally Posted by Schultzie

I wish no one would use this argument again. Ever.

Here's an example:

What if I were to tell you that I believed that a magical pink elephant with wings lived in the centre of the earth. It could telepathically communicate with everyone on the planet, and even had the power to answer your prayers. Would you believe me? No? Why not? You can't prove that the elephant doesn't exist. Using this logic, there are a million things that you should believe in simply because they can't be dis proven. Goblins, unicorns, Zeus...you get my point.

The fact is is that no one (including atheists) can definitively disprove the existence of anything. That being said, we do have to look at these claims objectively and figure out the probability of said being existing based on evidence (or lack thereof), and just plain rationality and common sense.

While I'm on the subject, I'd also like to point out another flaw in your argument. The burden of proof rests on the shoulders of the person making the claim. Just as the burden would fall on me to prove the existence of the elephant, it also falls on you to prove the existence of your god. Neither I nor anyone else has any responsibility to disprove your claim.

I just had to get this one off my chest.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Non-religious does not equal Atheist. There are many who don't believe in any religion because they are indifferent or aren't sure.

As that site points out. If you have any better sources please post them, you're the one that made the claim there were few atheists not me.

Perhaps you've never said you were an Atheist. I am having more than one conversation at a time here. Makes it hard to remember who said what. I'm not sure how that would constitute an example of intolerance but, if you remember I've already acknowledged that I'm intolerant.

So you can't attack atheism for being intolerant if you are yourself. Glad we cleared that up then.

My point is that unlike Christianity Atheism is a one trick pony.

Atheism doesn't CLAIM to be a replacement for Christianity! No wonder you are frustrated, you're trying to compare the two directly, somehow viewing atheism as a belief system, when it isn't, it's the lack of belief in God.

Of course atheism is a one trick pony, it's the state of thinking that there is no God (either by positive assertion or logical default position in the light of no evidence). It doesn't claim to be a set of morals, it doesn't claim to be a set of laws to live life by, it doesn't claim to be ANYTHING that any religion claims to be.

So complaining that atheism is a one trick pony is like complaining that gravity goes down.. well yeah, that's what it does.

Your point doesn't have a point.

Attack is central to its existence as evidenced by the content that is found on there web sites.

Back to this again, whatever, you can have the point if you want. But it doesn't matter because you are ok with intolerance.

Nope. What is wrong with Islam isn't the overwhelming theme of Christian thought and literature.

The overwhelming theme of Christianity itself is that there's only one set of correct beliefs, all others are the broad ways that lead to destruction. Hate the sin love the sinner, so the sin of belief in a different God is the sin that's being hated.

And again you're comparing atheism and Christianity as if they were the same kinds of things, implying that the overwhelming theme of atheist thought is against Christianity (rather, religion). Well no kidding, atheism is the belief that there is no God. What the heck else is it going to be about, puppies?

What started this dialogue was the characterization of Christianity as intolerant and therefore wrong by some of the Atheists on this site.

Really? Precisely which # posts were those?

I contend that Atheism is based on intolerance because it is found in all its conversation. Christianity on the other hand, does more than merely call out other belief systems.

Comparing apples and bicycles again.

Christianity does indeed do more than call out other belief systems; they (in the US anyway) use their power to impose their beliefs on others as well. Not really intolerance, but worse maybe. When they do that I think they do a very un-Christian thing.

Atheists, while they may think religious people are foolish, deceived, manipulated, or whatever, usually respect their right to practice their religion. Some may be vocal about it, but you judge someone by their actions not their words.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by flames85

I always think of atheist as people too lazy to question if God exists or not. They just seem to me like they'd rather not believe cause its easier to do.

That doesn't even make sense. By default an atheist questions if god exists or not.

And I'm pretty sure it's easier to just go with what all the other folks are saying than it is to oppose the crowd.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

In Western society, Christmas has evolved to become much more of a secular, cultural celebration than a religious one. There's nothing innately religious about exchanging gifts with loved ones and gathering together for a feast. And as I noted in my previous post, many of the things that are now part of the Christmas tradition have nothing at all to do with the birth of Jesus and are actually hold-overs from a time when European pagans celebrated the Winter solstice.

We exchange gifts because symbolic of the three wise men that brought gifts. It's called "CHRISTmas" for a reason. why don't you exchange gifts on any other day? Christians are celebrating the birth of christ. I don't understand why atheists do the same and don't believe in christ.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That doesn't even make sense. By default an atheist questions if god exists or not.

And I'm pretty sure it's easier to just go with what all the other folks are saying than it is to oppose the crowd.

It doesn't make sense because you don't want to make sense of it. The statement was made in regards to the atheists i know. When they ask if i am christian i say yes and i ask then why they don't believe in God, their response is usually i don't know or because he isn't real.

What are the other folks saying?

[flames85]

Originally Posted by Schultzie

Here's your answer to that question. Just skim through the top half of my post. The answer is in the bottom half.

Help me out here i can't find what your mean?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by flames85

It doesn't make sense because you don't want to make sense of it. The statement was made in regards to the atheists i know. When they ask if i am christian i say yes and i ask then why they don't believe in God, their response is usually i don't know or because he isn't real.

What are the other folks saying?

No, it just doesn't make sense.

"Because he isn't real" sounds like a decent answer to me.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

No, it just doesn't make sense.

"Because he isn't real" sounds like a decent answer to me.

How do you know he isn't real? Where is your proof?