The spectator sport China DOESN'T want you to see

[Dan02]

Alright i am confused. When i watch a lion stalk and kill a animal on animal planet at home on my couch it's educational. But if i go to china and watch a lion stalk and kill a lamb it's a cruel spectacle.

Perhaps tossing them a live goat isn't the most humane thing for the goat, but is it really fair to feed the lions already dead meat which has been processed like we do in zoos in the rest of the world? Something tells me thats not exactly how the lions do it in the wild.

I guess in the western world we've decided that it's more humane to deprive the lion of its genetically evolved instinct to hunt and kill the animal ourselves and feed it to them then toss the animal in there live and have it play out as it does in nature.

I certainly won't be queueing up to see this anytime in the near future but to be honest if the animal rights activists are up in arms about this one it must be a slow day in the world of animal abuse. This is hardly going to "make me want to boycott everything Chinese".

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Dion

Where's your proof that i'm being discriminatory?

I loate any kind of animal abuse, especially ones where people get to pay to watch some lamb get mauled and torn apart by some lions.

Btw you didn't answer my question.

To answer your question, I honestly don't view this as animal abuse. Carnavores eat other animals, that's just how it goes. People say animal documentaries are educational, so it's ok when they see it in there, but this is entertainment, so all of a sudden it's not ok. The act is still the same. Its a predatory animal killing and eating its prey.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

To answer your question, I honestly don't view this as animal abuse. Carnavores eat other animals, that's just how it goes. People say animal documentaries are educational, so it's ok when they see it in there, but this is entertainment, so all of a sudden it's not ok. The act is still the same. Its a predatory animal killing and eating its prey.

No it's not the same. The zoo is not the wild out doors where animal prey has a decent chance of avoiding their predator. Lions and big cats for that matter don't alway nab their prey after stalking them. Hack & Lube posted some stats in regards to gazelles.

Wether that documentry is filmed or not those animals involved will be killed and eaten regardless - that's the difference. What goes on in that China zoo is a staged event run by sadistic humans.

As for animal abuse, what chance did that Lamb have that was tossed over the edge? Or how about the broken legs it must have suffered?

The zoo is not a natural preditory enviroment.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Dan02

I guess in the western world we've decided that it's more humane to deprive the lion of its genetically evolved instinct to hunt and kill the animal ourselves and feed it to them then toss the animal in there live and have it play out as it does in nature.

Very rarely, I'm sure, do live animals fall out of the sky into a pack of hungry lions in "nature", so this isn't exactly hunting.

[DuffMan]

What a waste. That Lamb probably would've made some pretty good sweet and sour chicken balls.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Very rarely, I'm sure, do live animals fall out of the sky into a pack of hungry lions in "nature", so this isn't exactly hunting.

You're right all zoos should be abolished. Good luck with that. My point being we run our zoos the way we see fit and so do the Chinese. Neither are very fair to the animals, who are we to say which one it should be?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Dan02

You're right all zoos should be abolished. Good luck with that. My point being we run our zoos the way we see fit and so do the Chinese. Neither are very fair to the animals, who are we to say which one it should be?

That makes a lot of sense.

Who are we to say which way it should be? Well we all appear to know how to know how to read and write. That seems like qualification enough to have an opinion on a subject.

[HOZ]

[quote=Dan02;1138565]You're right all zoos should be abolished. Good luck with that. My point being we run our zoos the way we see fit and so do the Chinese. Neither are very fair to the animals, who are we to say which one it should be?[/quote]

Are you sure? You mean you don't have an opinion? You cannot choose between one or the other? Suspending your thinking so as to not be judgemental?

Not all zoos are made to exploit animals for profit or to be cruel. To lop them all together is idiotic. Zoos come in many forms, good and bad.

Some are created for the survival of animals and they allow people in to pay the bills.


We could use China as an example in itself.

There is a zoo specifically use for the purpose of helping the survival of Pandas.
vs
The Beijing Zoo where I saw the sport of throwing rocks at animals was quite popular.

You mean you could not choose which one of these is the better zoo?

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I can't remember the actual statistic but it's something like 60% of gazelles usually escape being chased by a lion. It's a pointless stat and ultimately meaningless but they do get away quite a lot in nature. That has nothing to do with this topic.

The entire point is the societal attitude toward animal rights or lack thereof also translates to other social behaviors that are somewhat disturbing to westerners and even myself, somebody who is Chinese. It's not a sentimental concern about the poor animals that get eaten by lions or butchered in slaughterhouses. This is about cultural attitudes and how they reflect on a people and the kinds of things they derive entertainment from that are literally outlawed in most western nations.

Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBIg80dkB4U

Did you enjoy it? Well it's just pirhana's getting fed which is a neccesity and even something that could happen in nature...But in nature it's not by your hand. Is there a more humane way of doing it? Of course...but then it wouldn't be so damn entertaining...Do you feel for the mouse or do you cheer the pirhanas?

I'll admit, I smiled once when I first watched that video but I'm not going to pat myself on the back or pay to see it. I killed birds with rocks when I was a kid, I enjoyed it up until after I realized what I just did. Haunts me to this day. It's probably part of an evolutionary instinct (stronger when you are young, like how kittens play-fight to learn hunting skills as adults) to enjoy hunting/killing/using violence as those were all neccessary and beneficial survival skills for our ancestors...but in today's day and age, it sickens me to see such things in Mainland China and this isn't because of this one isolated spectacle but many others prevalent things I have seen and heard first-hand reports of in terms of both animal and human cruelty...or just plain bad manners.

I think you made a very good point here.

You have more in common with the white guy down the street than a person from Mainland China.

Your ancestors may be chinese like mine are european but to say that I have much in common with my european bretheren is silly. Skin colour, possibly language and not much else.

I always get a kick out of Japanese Canadians/Americans that come to Japan expecting to be one of the boys and then are treated more of an outsider than I am. Quite the shock. Met 6 in my time here. 5 went back home and lost the hyphen forever and learned a valuable life-lesson. The 6th became Japanese.

I wonder if it is much the same for Chinese Canadians? I wonder...many came from Hong Kong. Mainland China would be a shock I think.

[maverickeastwood]

People are no longer easily amused if they have to resort to measures involving throwing live animals to the lions. The lions didn't have to try very hard to catch this one...just wait til it hits the ground. These are natural predators with skill and instinct, none of which are being used in this situation. This could almost relate to the cat in the microwave story...amusement purposes. "Nothing on TV and it's too cold outside, let's go and ......................"

[PsYcNeT]

Just to weigh in on this again...

I showed the video during the intermission to my fiancee who lived in Tianjin (China) for most of her life before moving to Canada.

To quote:

"It's pretty gross, but the culture is different. There are alot of things Canadians do that we consider savage as well, and it's just a goat that would have been used for food anyhow. You people can be such pussies."

Straight from the horses mouth I guess

[maverickeastwood]

Intersting perspective. What do we do do that is so savage though?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Despite the source of the story, the pictures don't lie and I have see much more horrific stuff from china in regards to both animal and human rights from much more veritable sources and even direct first person sources.

I'm of Chinese descent but I despise everything China is today. I've vowed never to visit there...and it's a product of culture in many ways but it doesn't make it less attrocious to me (a person who is already a cynical heartless realist).

Yeah, I would say that is pretty accurate. I mean, when you look at history, many other cultures had this kind of stuff - ie. The Romans. For instance, I was in Cambodia about 3 weeks ago, and some of the stuff there that happened during the 1970's civil revolution - backed by American support - had stuff as gruesome as this, except to humans instead of animals, ie. people eating people.

I just come to realize that, this is the way things are.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

My own parents were in China a month ago. They saw such disgusting practices as "entertainment" in many places in China. They are accepted as commonplace. One popular act is to have fake "traditional chinese fisherman" sitting in rivers to entertain foreigners on boat tours who then have to tip these performers. These "fishermen" would have a flock of pelican like birds (chained together by invisible fishing wire so they can't escape). These fishermen would pretend they have mastered the art of getting these pelicans to fish for them when in fact, their gullets have been tied off (almost to the point of asphyxiation) so that they can barely breathe and never actually swallow. Then they will have a "net" under the water (that people aren't supposed to know is there) full of fish. They will throw these birds off their raft into the water and the starving thin birds will surface with fish and try desperately to swallow them but they can't since their necks are tied off and they literally choke until the performer removes the fish, gets his tips, then later throws back the fish.

I was in China about 2 weeks ago and saw that too. It actually isn't as bad as you described them though.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

There's a reason dog-fighting of the Michael Vick variety is generally culturally unacceptable around here.

Cowperson

This is exactly the point: it's about culture. There's lot of people in here with the whole holier-than-thou attitude criticizing China for enjoying this, but you have to recognize that they have a different perspective than us "civilized" north americans.

Even in their view of an animals life; alot of mainland chinese people would have no problem breaking a chicken's neck with their bare hands, but compare that to here. For them life & death is an accepted way of life, and being at the top of the food chain you have certain advantages. Killing a goat with your own hands, or sending it to its death via the lions, really isnt that different to the Chinese. I've seen my (chinese) grandmother throw a live chicken into boiling water without a second thought, because the North American notions of "humaneness" don't exist to her. It's wrong to us, because our culture says it is. It's not wrong to them for exactly the same reason.

Animals being killed for entertainment purposes has been around for millenia, and persists today in other forms like bull fighting. Not to mention it is a spectrum of animal cruelty that doesnt require death, and our own Calgary stampede activities would fit in there nicely.

And I'm sorry but you can't equate this to genocide in Sudan. Human lives >>> animal lives. Ask the United Nations the last time they intervened for your perceived notions of animal cruelty.

I'm not saying I support this (I do not), but I am saying that it's not as black and white as many of you make it out to be.
________
Wholesale Vaporizer

[OutOfTheCube]

Looked like the Discovery Channel to me.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Dion

No it's not the same. The zoo is not the wild out doors where animal prey has a decent chance of avoiding their predator. Lions and big cats for that matter don't alway nab their prey after stalking them. Hack & Lube posted some stats in regards to gazelles.

Wether that documentry is filmed or not those animals involved will be killed and eaten regardless - that's the difference. What goes on in that China zoo is a staged event run by sadistic humans.

The goat may get away the first couple times in the wild, but this can't go on forever. Sooner or later it will be eaten alive. Goats can't continously, throughout their entire lives, out-run their predators until the point where they have a peaceful death and die of old age.

Originally Posted by Dion

As for animal abuse, what chance did that Lamb have that was tossed over the edge? Or how about the broken legs it must have suffered?

I do agree that throwing the goat 30 feet below is cruel. This is where I sort of have a problem with it. I wouldn't really care at all if they lowered the goat down nicely...

[maverickeastwood]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

I do agree that throwing the goat 30 feet below is cruel. This is where I sort of have a problem with it. I wouldn't really care at all if they lowered the goat down nicely...

...as the lions lick their chops, saying amongst themselves as the meal is lowered "dental floss to boot"

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by maverickeastwood

...as the lions lick their chops, saying amongst themselves as the meal is lowered "dental floss to boot"

Haha, ya I know it wouldn't improve his chances of survival in the least, it'd just save the broken legs. He'll get eaten either way, I see no need to cause further suffering by breaking his legs though, that's just cruel to me.

I know I'd snap if I were lying on my death bed, and moments before I passed on, some ###### came running in with a bat and broke my legs. I'm dying either way, but seriously, uncalled for!

[Dion]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

The goat may get away the first couple times in the wild, but this can't go on forever. Sooner or later it will be eaten alive. Goats can't continously, throughout their entire lives, out-run their predators until the point where they have a peaceful death and die of old age.

For sure they will be eaten in the end. At least when they die in the wild it won't be as a result of human intervention.

I do agree that throwing the goat 30 feet below is cruel. This is where I sort of have a problem with it. I wouldn't really care at all if they lowered the goat down nicely...

Even with lowering the lamb down it wouldn't have much of chance. It was would be an easy meall for the lions. No hunting or stalking of their prey. The animal worlds version of fast food/takeout. "Honey! I haven't got time to hunt and stalk our dinner so i'm going to the wall for some takeout."