MLB - The Mitchell Report

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Hey im happy this happened (regardless of the outcome) just to wipe the smugness off the players union. Baseball needs to purge anyone and everyone associated with drugs to get any sort of respect back in the eyes of many. I just don't think they have the balls to do it.

They've survived strikes, even skipping a World Series. Huge payroll teams dominate year in and year out with smaller market teams taking turns making a run. Players earn multi-million dollar contracts.

And the fans still come back and/or tune in.

Does the average fan care if their players are on 'roids? Or will they be indignant this week and then be scanning the box scores as soon as players report to spring training?

[Table 5]

hey, I don't disagree, that's why I don't see any huge changes happening. There is a huge chunk of the fanbase that just doesnt seem to care what their players are on...they just wanna see meatheads pound homeruns.

It doesnt mean that baseball has any respect outside of it's fanbase though. At this stage, it's about as legit as cycling (despite what Habernac will argue ).

[habernac]

Among current players I asked to interview were five who have spoken publicly
about the issue. When I did so, I made clear that there was no suggestion that any of the five had
used performance enhancing substances, and I repeat here that clarifying statement. Four of the
five declined. One of them, Frank Thomas of the Toronto Blue Jays, agreed. His comments

were informative and helpful.
--------------------------------------------------------

Several weeks later, a Nightengale story quoted a number of major league players
and front office executives who expressed concern over the prevalence of steroid use in Major
League Baseball.

209 Originally published in the Los Angeles Times, the story was picked up by
wire services over the next few days and a revised version ran in the next issue of the Sporting
News, in which steroid use was called “baseball’s deep, dark, sinister secret.”210

In the article, Randy Smith, then the general manager of the Padres, was quoted as
having said that “[w]e all know there’s steroid use, and it’s definitely become more prevalent.”
He estimated that “10% to 20%” of players were using steroids. Another unnamed general
manager said that he “wouldn’t be surprised if it’s closer to 30%” and that he thought the entire
lineup of one American League team a few years earlier “may have been on it.” He said he was
“seeing guys now who were washed up five years ago, and now they’ve got bat speed that
they’ve never had before. It’s insane.” Kevin Malone, then-general manager of the Montreal
Expos, said that he heard “rumors that usage is way up, and it would be nice to know if those are

accurate.” Players also were quoted in the article, with Frank Thomas of the Chicago White Sox saying that he’d “love to see testing” and future Hall of Fame member Tony Gwynn of the
Padres calling steroids “the big secret we’re not supposed to talk about . . . .”


Frank certainly earned kudos from investigators. He's been as big as a house for as long as I can remember.

[habernac]

if all sports were tested like cycling, pro sports wouldn't exist in North America.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by habernac

if all sports were tested like cycling, pro sports wouldn't exist in North America.

I disagree with that. I think it would be exactly like cycling. Everyone expecting that the ones still playing just haven't been caught yet.

Thats what really kind of makes me discouraged that this can be cleaned up. Cycling has a super strict testing regime and there are still regularly cyclists getting caught or admitting they were juiced but never caught.

[habernac]

the big problem in baseball is the lack of a decent test for their biggest issue: HGH. Ditto for football. Hockey's testing is a joke, too.

[fredr123]

ESPN has a list of players mentioned in the report: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3153646

[troutman]

SI expects many more names to surface:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...x.html?eref=T1

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I disagree with that. I think it would be exactly like cycling. Everyone expecting that the ones still playing just haven't been caught yet.

Thats what really kind of makes me discouraged that this can be cleaned up. Cycling has a super strict testing regime and there are still regularly cyclists getting caught or admitting they were juiced but never caught.

I mean it's really very simple. Those calling for clean athletes and saying how cheats sicken them are very naive. There are literally millions and millions of dollars at stake. Huge contracts sitting there as enticement and pandering to the all too human character trait --- greed. If there was an equivalent drug in all professions and the money available was the same then all the hypocrites would have to get off their high horse cause they WOULD BE USERS. What would stop you? High moral standards? In today's day and age you have to be kidding me.

Look at Jones. They take away her medals and some other cheating dufii will get them instead. What a comedy hour. They are all either doing roids or turning a blind eye to those that are doing them so none of them hold any high moral ground. I wouldn't change a single record.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I mean it's really very simple. Those calling for clean athletes and saying how cheats sicken them are very naive. There are literally millions and millions of dollars at stake. Huge contracts sitting there as enticement and pandering to the all too human character trait --- greed. If there was an equivalent drug in all professions and the money available was the same then all the hypocrites would have to get off their high horse cause they WOULD BE USERS. What would stop you? High moral standards? In today's day and age you have to be kidding me.

Look at Jones. They take away her medals and some other cheating dufii will get them instead. What a comedy hour. They are all either doing roids or turning a blind eye to those that are doing them so none of them hold any high moral ground. I wouldn't change a single record.

Fine don't change a single record, but split them off, Records for real athletes, and records for Steroid laden freaks. Let future athletes compete with the Barry Bond's of the world, but then you need to state that the Hank Aarons, Roger Maris', Babe Ruths of the world should keep their records.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Fine don't change a single record, but split them off, Records for real athletes, and records for Steroid laden freaks. Let future athletes compete with the Barry Bond's of the world, but then you need to state that the Hank Aarons, Roger Maris', Babe Ruths of the world should keep their records.

What makes those guys real athletes and the rest not? What was the standard in their day --did they find a way around it -- were their bats corked?

If you could transport them in time to today would they resist the temptation of the huge money -- I sincerely doubt it!!!

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I mean it's really very simple. Those calling for clean athletes and saying how cheats sicken them are very naive. There are literally millions and millions of dollars at stake. Huge contracts sitting there as enticement and pandering to the all too human character trait --- greed. If there was an equivalent drug in all professions and the money available was the same then all the hypocrites would have to get off their high horse cause they WOULD BE USERS. What would stop you? High moral standards? In today's day and age you have to be kidding me.

Look at Jones. They take away her medals and some other cheating dufii will get them instead. What a comedy hour. They are all either doing roids or turning a blind eye to those that are doing them so none of them hold any high moral ground. I wouldn't change a single record.

If your point is that there will always be cheating as long as there is huge money at stake and greed is involved, I agree.
If your point is that if everyone could cheat, they would cheat; I disagree.
If your point is to say I am naive if I don't accept steroid use then I would tell you that hoping for better is not the same as believing there is nothing wrong.

I'm the type of person who believes in following the spirit of the rules. Just because there is not a rule specifically preventing something does not mean it is allowed. I am no angel, but I do know games and sport are a lot more enjoyable when all participants are following the same set of standards.

I don't think players should be required to choose between a career and ending up 6' under (like Ken Caminiti).

If someone wants to start up a league and say everything goes, they are more than welcome to do so. Until that point, I'm going to hope (but not expect) for the sport to be played by the players instead of the chemists.

[socalwingfan]

I don't want to come off as a Yankee apolgist - but I have a hard time with the inclusion of Pettitte and Clemens in this report. I believe Clemens has been juicing for years, but the only evidence is the word of a former trainer - no paper trail like a lot of the others named. I smell a lawsuit on the horizon.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by socalwingfan

I don't want to come off as a Yankee apolgist - but I have a hard time with the inclusion of Pettitte and Clemens in this report. I believe Clemens has been juicing for years, but the only evidence is the word of a former trainer - no paper trail like a lot of the others named. I smell a lawsuit on the horizon.

From the Sports Law Blog: http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2007/...erwhelmed.html

Looks like Milstein agrees with you to a certain extent.

Lots of the guys named are accused of doing something that was not against MLB rules at the time based on the unsworn, unchallenged testimony of a couple staffers.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

What makes those guys real athletes and the rest not? What was the standard in their day --did they find a way around it -- were their bats corked?

A corked bat is far far different from a person who throws on artificial muscle and basically changes the physics of his body. If anything the records should be more amazing in those days because they didn't concern themselves with body nutrition, and they didn't have trainers living at their house.

There's a difference between natural talent and talent bought on line.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

If you could transport them in time to today would they resist the temptation of the huge money -- I sincerely doubt it!!!

How does that matter? Babe Ruth would probably have a stroke because there was more then three types of beer.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Fine don't change a single record, but split them off, Records for real athletes, and records for Steroid laden freaks. Let future athletes compete with the Barry Bond's of the world, but then you need to state that the Hank Aarons, Roger Maris', Babe Ruths of the world should keep their records.

Eh.. records don't really mean much as time goes by. Baseball is the only sport that's really orgasmic over them!

Like Cy Young's 500+ wins or the batting record which is like .440.
Those don't count for much either since the game of baseball at that time doesn't resemble the game now.

100 years from now everyone will look back and dismiss this as the drug era. Who knows, maybe by then the bases will be IN THE AIR and homeruns hit into outer space!

[kipperfan]

I have always known that piece of dirty garbage Clemons has been juicing for years. I hope a mountain of evidence surfaces in regards to his usage so he can be given the Pete Rose treatment and banned from the game forever, and he can take Bariod with him.

Out of all of this, what really comes to my mind is how amazing certain players, most esspecially Ken Griffey Jr. have been over the course of their careers while playing against a pack of steriod injecting animals. Sure, there is a chance guys like Griff and Thomas have juiced but never been found out, but looking at what they have said and done over the years I would highly, highly doubt it. I mean hell, if we could throw out the #'s of all the juicers Griff would be one of the very best ever, not to mention to fact he has been riddled with injuries for years. I am going out and buying a Griffey jersey before Christmas, not even kidding. Getting behind a guy like Griff or FT is the only way thinking about the MLB doesnt make me feel dirty.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by fredr123

From the Sports Law Blog: http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2007/...erwhelmed.html

Looks like Milstein agrees with you to a certain extent.

Lots of the guys named are accused of doing something that was not against MLB rules at the time based on the unsworn, unchallenged testimony of a couple staffers.

This is not true - it was against MLB rules (as Mitchell describes in the report) and it was always illegal in the US to possess steroids without a prescription.

No player is going to sue - they did it.

[Jiggy_12]

Saw a quote on sportsnet news, Gregg Zaun outright denied it.

[albertGQ]

I'd be interested to see how many and who in the NHL has taken performance enhancing drugs. I bet if/when the truth comes out, people like Don Cherry will owe Dick Pound a HUGE apology