Muslim employee at Canada airport fights dress code

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Simplicity:

If your religious beliefs don't allow you to wear short skirts, then don't wear short skirts. If the company you work for has an employee dress code that goes against your religious beliefs, then don't work there.

I'm sorry, but trying to force an entire company to succumb to your own religious beliefs is just the lazy way out. People all over the world make intense, personal sacrifices every day in order to practice their religions, but this woman can't simply find another job in a city where you can trip over 17 jobs on the way to your car in the morning?

Please. You want to impress me? Sacrifice your job in the name of your beliefs and find somewhere else to work.

She is not trying to make the whole company succumb to her religion. No one else will be affected by this. Have you read the thread?

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

If the company you work for has an employee dress code that goes against your religious beliefs, then don't work there.

Where a rule conflicts with religious requirements, there is a duty to ensure that individuals are able to observe their religion, unless this would cause undue hardship because of cost, or health and safety reasons. Unlawful discrimination because of religion can include:

• Refusing to make an exception to dress codes to recognize religious dress requirements;

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally Posted by moon

He is being wronged because he can't wear a turban? I guess we have differing opinions on what being wronged means and what is unjust.

Why would you want someone to work for you who's so-called conviction is that you are wrong and that he shouldn't have to obey/listen to you or follow your rules? To me that shows someone who is going to be a problme in the future.

These aren't just any rules. If I had a rule that work starts at 9am then yes, I want my employees there at 9am. But this rule has to do with religion and the freedom of it, even in the workplace. The man has the right to wear his turban. Deny him that right and its the employer who is in the wrong and has to change its policy, not the other way around.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Crazy Flamer

These aren't just any rules. If I had a rule that work starts at 9am then yes, I want my employees there at 9am. But this rule has to do with religion and the freedom of it, even in the workplace. The man has the right to wear his turban. Deny him that right and its the employer who is in the wrong and has to change its policy, not the other way around.

Legally it may be the employer in the wrong and have to change the policy but that doesn't make it right and it doesn't mean that for me that I believe that I would be wrong to deny him said right.

I really don't see how him working voluntarily at a job and being asked to conform to rules impacts his freedom. He has all the freedom in the world not to work at said job if he doesn't want to.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by fredr123

Where a rule conflicts with religious requirements, there is a duty to ensure that individuals are able to observe their religion, unless this would cause undue hardship because of cost, or health and safety reasons. Unlawful discrimination because of religion can include:

• Refusing to make an exception to dress codes to recognize religious dress requirements;

Again I say, and notice that no-one has refuted the point, this is not a question of her religion, but her subjective interpretation of what that religion requires. There is NO rule in Islam that prevents her from wearing the pants provided as an option. She clearly doesn't think the pants are modest enough, but that is HER feelings on the matter, not some kind of religious requirement, like the Sikh turbans.

She is trying to bend the rules to her culture, not to her religion. This is not protected under law, nor should it be.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by PowerPlayoffs06

No real cultural traditions - instead, a mass of traditions that clash with eachother.

Other than the Sacred Baggage-Checker Skirt, what traditions are currently clashing in Canada?

I know I sound like a broken record here, but nothing has ever changed for me. No tradition I want to follow, no aspect of my culture that I want to preserve, nothing that I do or want to do has ever been threatened by anyone.

I think you already admitted the same thing, but maybe you have friends or family who have their traditions or culture eroded or threatened?

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally Posted by moon

Legally it may be the employer in the wrong and have to change the policy but that doesn't make it right and it doesn't mean that for me that I believe that I would be wrong to deny him said right.

I really don't see how him working voluntarily at a job and being asked to conform to rules impacts his freedom. He has all the freedom in the world not to work at said job if he doesn't want to.

I guess we just agree to disagree.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by PowerPlayoffs06

I know covering their hair is required by their religion. I don't need to know why it's required to comment on it. How would knowing that make any difference of the fact that a Canadian symbol of over a hundred years was compromised to appease a single individual from a foreign country because he decided to move here and wanted a job where part of it was in conflict with his beliefs?

Tell me how it was compromised? They wear the full uniform, just wear a different head covering? Does every RCMP officer now wear a turban? No, they do not, very very few do, and those few are of a certain faith.

The red serge is as beautiful as it ever was.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by PowerPlayoffs06

http://history.cbc.ca/history/?MIval...ge_id=3&lang=E



He was accepted into the RCMP in 1990. Apparently the traditions of his old country were more important to him than those of the new country he decided to live in. So he expected the new country to change its traditions so please him so he can hold onto his traditions.



So Canada can have no real culture of it's own. It's merely is some land where people from around the world are invited to come enjoy the freedoms and rights this country provides them, but hold onto their own out of date traditions because it suits their belief system and expect Canada to conform itself to those traditions and beliefs?

Ahha, define to me what Canadian culture is?

To me it is the sum of all the cultures of all those who live in Canada, and that is why I think Canadians are somewhat apathetic. We are a very young country, a country still in the process of change, the change is coming from those within our country and it is coming from those who move to our country. And it is confusing to many because we don't know who we are yet or who we will become. The one thing I would emphasise to everyone is do not be afraid of change and do not be afraid because something or someone is different. Change in itself is not bad and change does not mean that you will lose your culture. You are the one who is responsible for keeping your culture alive. We are extremely lucky we live in a country where multiple cultures are accepted. Celebrate that fact. Don't bemoan the fact that everyone is not like you.

You know, I was just a school child when the whole fiasco with the flag was going on. My God, when I look back on that today, I can not believe that so many actually wanted to maintain the Union Jack as the defining symbol of Canada. Thank God Pearson stuck to his guns because now we have one of the most beautiful flags in the world, a flag that is instantly recognized as a Canadian symbol.

I was a young adult when the whole fiasco with the RCMP and the turban issue was such a divisive issue in Canada. Now look back on the institution of the RCMP since that whole scene. Was all that hullabaloo worth it? I do not think so. I can not see how the institution has been compromised whatsoever. I mean, there was a real issue when women joined the RCMP as well. And don't forget about the first aboriginal Canadian who became an RCMP officer. Heaven forbid, he was allowed to keep a braid under his hat, like how awful

Has the instituion of the RCMP and what it stands for and how we recognize it been compromised? I do not think so. It might have changed and grown, in other words, it is now visible to all that both sexes can become members of that instituion, and that people of different ethnic and religious backgrounds can belong to that instituion. But seriously, has that instution been compromised? Heavens no. So, don't be afraid to grow as a person or as a country.

And if you are not willing to change and grow, sadly, you will go the way of the dinosaur. Personally, I feel so much richer for having many cultures in our country.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by moon

I think you could raise issue with his decision making/intelligence/competence based on the fact that it was so important to him to wear his turban that he was willing to risk his job to do so.

Personally not a person that I would want working for me, especially when that job would have a lot of dealing with the general public.

And many would argue the opposite, that being principled is a desirable trait. And many would argue that such a person is a very brave person because to draw attention to yourself in such a manner requires a spine and it requires conviction. Too many today are way too unprincipled and go the way of what is the popular flavor of the day, week or month.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by moon

Legally it may be the employer in the wrong and have to change the policy but that doesn't make it right and it doesn't mean that for me that I believe that I would be wrong to deny him said right.

I really don't see how him working voluntarily at a job and being asked to conform to rules impacts his freedom. He has all the freedom in the world not to work at said job if he doesn't want to.

Let's turn it around a bit -- say some guy goes to work one day and his boss says "grow a beard and wear a turban or you are fired". If he doesn't do it, is it hunky-dory with you if he gets canned?

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Let's turn it around a bit -- say some guy goes to work one day and his boss says "grow a beard and wear a turban or you are fired". If he doesn't do it, is it hunky-dory with you if he gets canned?

Lets do it correctly...

The boss tells you you must grow a beard and wear a turban to work at her company. So you have a choice. Grow one and wear one or not work there.

That said in this woman's case the company should/needs to show that the length of skirt she is wearing is detrimental to her performing the required tasks that her job entails. If they can't then they are wrong. This is still is no case of discrimination against her religion.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Lets do it correctly...

The boss tells you you must grow a beard and wear a turban to work at her company. So you have a choice. Grow one and wear one or not work there.

Yeah, exactly. Is that okay?

I couldn't really understand the rest of it.

[moon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Let's turn it around a bit -- say some guy goes to work one day and his boss says "grow a beard and wear a turban or you are fired". If he doesn't do it, is it hunky-dory with you if he gets canned?

Sure. Personally I feel that someone that forces people to grow a beard and wear a turban likely isn't going to be in business that long but if they feel it will help their business or should be a requirement then go ahead.

I believe when it comes to hiring or firing people should be able to do what they want . Nobody is forcing people to take these jobs so I don't see what the big deal is if they want them to look or act a certain way, have certain skill or education, work whatever hours etc.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by moon

Sure. Personally I feel that someone that forces people to grow a beard and wear a turban likely isn't going to be in business that long but if they feel it will help their business or should be a requirement then go ahead.

I believe when it comes to hiring or firing people should be able to do what they want . Nobody is forcing people to take these jobs so I don't see what the big deal is if they want them to look or act a certain way, have certain skill or education, work whatever hours etc.

Well unfortunately that only works if everyone is of the same mind and all play ball fair. And sadly that too often is not the case.

There are rules to govern the workplace because too many people have been abused by bad employers.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by moon

Sure. Personally I feel that someone that forces people to grow a beard and wear a turban likely isn't going to be in business that long but if they feel it will help their business or should be a requirement then go ahead.

Well okay, that's kind of beside the point.

How about if the boss insisted employees get a tattoo of the Green Goblin on their back or wear silk undergarments while working? That won't hurt the business, but he feels it should be a requirement...

Originally Posted by moon

I believe when it comes to hiring or firing people should be able to do what they want . Nobody is forcing people to take these jobs so I don't see what the big deal is if they want them to look or act a certain way, have certain skill or education, work whatever hours etc.

Another scenario -- the manager of the local Burger Barn wants to farm out the cashier to his own personal milking machine but she refuses the teat.

Should he be able to "do what he wants" and fire her? Nobody is forcing her to work there, so if she doesn't like it, hit the road?

[moon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Well okay, that's kind of beside the point.

How about if the boss insisted employees get a tattoo of the Green Goblin on their back or wear silk undergarments while working? That won't hurt the business, but he feels it should be a requirement...



Another scenario -- the manager of the local Burger Barn wants to farm out the cashier to his own personal milking machine but she refuses the teat.

Should he be able to "do what he wants" and fire her? Nobody is forcing her to work there, so if she doesn't like it, hit the road?

Not sure why you feel it is beside the point but to answer your question sure why not if that is what the boss wants then he should be able to go ahead and make that a requirement, its his business he should be able to make whatever decisions he wants.

I would think that she would want to quit in the second scenario if the only thing holding him back form that request was the law, but yes I see no problem in him making that a requirement of the job.

I imagine that in these crazy scenario of your the business would have a hell of time attracting employees and that it is unlikely they would also be very successful as I would expect that their views would also effect their customers as well.

Also these "fake" scenario's are much worse than having to wear pants or not wearing a turban. In reality the majority of the things that employers ask their employees to do are so minimal that they don't even notice and other things like this that offend people or violate their "religious convictions" are really quite small as well.

I just don't get what is so bad about a if you don't like the job requirements don't work there. If you have to violate your religious believes and don't want to find another job. Nobody is forcing her to screen people at the airport, nobody has to do compulsary RCMP service.

[moon]

Originally Posted by redforever

Well unfortunately that only works if everyone is of the same mind and all play ball fair. And sadly that too often is not the case.

There are rules to govern the workplace because too many people have been abused by bad employers.

Abused how, by having to wear a uniform? Doesn't seem like abuse to me.

I am not sure how saying someone has to wear pants is abuse or that they can't wear a turban is abuse.

If an employer lies about conditions, hours or safety and then forces an employee to work under there then I agree they should be legal action taken. If they break safety regulations, they definately should be punished.

[moon]

Originally Posted by redforever

And many would argue the opposite, that being principled is a desirable trait. And many would argue that such a person is a very brave person because to draw attention to yourself in such a manner requires a spine and it requires conviction. Too many today are way too unprincipled and go the way of what is the popular flavor of the day, week or month.

I am not sure that voluntarily applying for a job knowing full well what the requirements are and then arguing over an aspect that is as trivial as wearing a turban or not is all that principled or something that should be admired.

He wasn't exactly fighting for decent pay or safer work conditions in a sweatshop. He wasn't fighting "intolerance" in a place that he was forced to be.

I think they are thousands more people associated with the RCMP that should have the label brave associated with them rather than a guy that sues them so he can wear a turban.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by moon

I am not sure that voluntarily applying for a job knowing full well what the requirements are and then arguing over an aspect that is astrivial as wearing a turban or not is all that principled or something that should be admired.

He wasn't exactly fighting for decent pay or safer work conditions in a sweatshop. He wasn't fighting "intolerance" in a place that he was forced to be.

I think they are thousands more people associated with the RCMP that should have the label brave associated with them rather than a guy that sues them so he can wear a turban.

And I suppose it is just a "trivial" matter to you when young girls are denied playing on sports teams because they wear a hijab too. After all, if they really wanted to play that sport, well they could just take off the hijab, right? Are things that black and white to you and are you saying we should have a homogeneous society where everyone is the same?