Man dies after being tasered in Vancouver Airport

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by soulchoice

According to the charter of rights, section 24, when walking;

1)you dont have to answer any questions as to your name and address when walking on the street and not committing a crime,
2)you dont have to justify what you are doing or where you are
3)you dont have to produce documentation of who you are, nor means on how you support yourself

If the officer is conducting an investigation and he believes an offence was committed (you committed that offence) regardless if it is criminal/provincial/municipal you must provide the officer with your name if he asks you for it. If you don't...you may charged with obstruction.

I am not saying that the police can just walk up to you and demand you papers. It is not the gestapo. But what you dont realize is that many times a complaint has come into the police about suspicious activity. The police might see you walking down the street at night and want to talk to you so they can eliminate you as a suspect. If you say "bugger off, non of your business" you are only drawing suspicion on yourself.

A reasonable person would say yes officer my name is so and so, is there a problem?

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

What a black and white world you must live in. In the real world, there is different levels of breaking the law, different ways for police to react to them and different levels of punishment.
I guess in your world, every 13 year old who steels a candy bar should be tasered too. Who cares if they die, it's not you.

I'm guessing everyone on this board would be tasered by now in your world. Anyone who broke the law and drove over the speed limit, downloaded music illegally etc. Zap em all!!!

If that's the way you want to interpret my post, fine. But any sensible person knows that isn't what I mean.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

If that's the way you want to interpret my post, fine. But any sensible person knows that isn't what I mean.

Don't mean to jump in here, and no disrespect intended, but when you make statements like you did below in this one, you shouldn't be surprised by peoples responses.

I'm just going to say what I have wanted to say all along...some dude got Tasered, big freaking deal. More people in this world need a good Taserin'.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by Dion

Don't mean to jump in here, and no disrespect intended, but when you make statements like you did below in this one, you shouldn't be surprised by peoples responses.

I'm just going to say what I have wanted to say all along...some dude got Tasered, big freaking deal. More people in this world need a good Taserin'.

That wasn't the post he responded to. He points out that I want music downloaders tased, thus he needs to get a grip.

[Eagle Eye]

Originally Posted by Dion

If you think tasering is the only way I doubt any other options i might say would change your mind.



Not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Agree to disagree.



If someone pulls a gun then yeah, taser him.

Whats not so cut and dry about ignoring a police officers instructions if you have commited a crime? If you speed, guess what you have to stay in your car and provide your info. If you got out and approached the cop, and he told you to stop, what do you think he should do? Wait until you get close enough so that he has no options?

I am not saying that Joe blow walking down the street deserves to be tasered, but if you are commiting a crime no matter how small you should probably listen.

If you really think that a cop has to wait until a guy pulls a gun to use a taser you are way off. A cop should be pulling a gun out if he sees a weapon.

I really want to know the other methods of controlling a situation, I would really like to hear, maybe it would change my opion of them.

Also how many people have actually died from being tasered? I really dont think it happens that often.

Cops have a tough job and they have very little time to determine if a situation they are in could get worse, and I really think that tasering someone is the best method of controlling a situation that could get out of hand. Sure some times things go wrong (until we know more about the vancouver situation I can't say it was right or wrong), but a police officer's or other lives are important too.

Originally Posted by soulchoice

I dont need to produce anything for him due to my charter of rights(which I carry with me at all times).

Seriously, did anyone else catch this? I nearly fell out of my seat laughing. Paranoid much?

Nice quote on section 24. Just for the record, if you carry around a Charter of Rights that you wrote yourself and edited the way you saw fit, it doesn't really count.

However, you are correct, if you have committed no offense, you do not have to produce or provide any form of identification. The kicker is, it doesn't matter if you think you haven't done anything, everyone says that. I would recommend if a) you have nothing to hide b) wish to assist in an investigation, just produce some ID. No it's not a police state, no its not a conspiracy, its just what a reasonable person would do.

I won't touch on the taser thing again as it seems to be going around in circles.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

No it's not a police state, no its not a conspiracy, its just what a reasonable person would do.

What if they don't?

Like if they don't have anything to hide and just want to be on their way, enjoy their privacy, that kind of thing.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Still waiting for people to list the other options..none of the anti-taser gang has yet to come up with a workable solution...

well, in terms of the traffic stop one... i guess that'd be a start:

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

i honestly believe a simple chat outside the car would do wonders
"you can and will be arrested for not signing the ticket. signing it does not admit guilt just acknowledges you received it - you can fight it in court later if you want.do you wish to sign the ticket?"

"No."

"Ok, i am now placing you under arrest for <something> please place your hands behind your back"

no need to get out the taser before the cop even gets the words out of his mouth either.

in that situation he probably wouldn't say 'no' even, he'd probably just sign the damn ticket. but even if he did say 'no' he'd know what's going on

edit: can't give you a whole list cause its hard to say what his reaction to having the situation explained to him would have been. the taser wouldn't be out of the question down the road but in a calm situation like this, the taser shouldn't be the first choice.

[Dion]

[quote=Eagle Eye;1077975]Whats not so cut and dry about ignoring a police officers instructions if you have commited a crime? If you speed, guess what you have to stay in your car and provide your info. If you got out and approached the cop, and he told you to stop, what do you think he should do? Wait until you get close enough so that he has no options?

I am not saying that Joe blow walking down the street deserves to be tasered, but if you are commiting a crime no matter how small you should probably listen.[quote]

Again my issue has always been with the way they are used.

If you really think that a cop has to wait until a guy pulls a gun to use a taser you are way off. A cop should be pulling a gun out if he sees a weapon.

Chances are if he thinks that person has a gun he'll have his hand on his own gun as opposed to a taser.

I really want to know the other methods of controlling a situation, I would really like to hear, maybe it would change my opion of them.

Pepper spray is one.

If a driver is not being co operative with an officer, slam that person up against the car or hood and put on the cuffs.

If more than one officer is at the scene, tackle the guy to the ground.

Try to defuse the situation by talking with the person.

Now before you jump all over me for my suggestions, they are not automatics. Each situation will require a different response. Just don't use tasers because it's the easy way out of dealing with a situation where other options might have worked..

Also how many people have actually died from being tasered? I really dont think it happens that often.

IRRC there were 17 deaths in Canada and more than 280 in the United States.

It happens enough that reviews and studies are being done as to the situations they are being used in. For example the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary has suspended its use of Tasers pending the outcome of the review.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-col...rnc-taser.html

Cops have a tough job and they have very little time to determine if a situation they are in could get worse, and I really think that tasering someone is the best method of controlling a situation that could get out of hand. Sure some times things go wrong (until we know more about the vancouver situation I can't say it was right or wrong), but a police officer's or other lives are important too.

For sure they have a tough job. And you're right some situations don't give offivers much time to make descions on what they should do. And yes their lives are important.

Peoples lives are important too. If complications are arising and leading to deaths by the use of tasers (not saying tasers are the fault), we need to investiagte how and why they are happening and see if things can be done to avoid further deaths. Still lots we don't know. Thus my opinion we limit the use of tasers until we know more.

Where we disagree is on tasers being the best method of controlling situations.

[Eagle Eye]

Originally Posted by Dion

Again my issue has always been with the way they are used.



Chances are if he thinks that person has a gun he'll have his hand on his own gun as opposed to a taser.



Pepper spray is one.

If a driver is not being co operative with an officer, slam that person up against the car or hood and put on the cuffs.

If more than one officer is at the scene, tackle the guy to the ground.

Try to defuse the situation by talking with the person.

Now before you jump all over me for my suggestions, they are not automatics. Each situation will require a different response. Just don't use tasers because it's the easy way out of dealing with a situation where other options might have worked..

I agree that a cop should be able to throw a guy against the car and cuff the guy, but police officers tend to be thrown in the fire for using physical force against people.

I also agree that a cop should try and difuse the situation, but I think that this is the main problem, that they do and the offenders do not listen (if cops are tasering people without any due course they should be chastised for it)

Pepper spray is another good one, I actually dont know why it isnt used very often? Anyone know?

And I also agree that each situation requires a different solution, but it is a lot easier to say how they should have handled the situation after the fact. I truley feel that cops use that taser as a method because they feel it is the best way to difuse the situation without resorting to using a gun or phyiscal violence. If you taser a guy he becomes incapaciated and is easier to control.

[Eagle Eye]

Just to add another question. Without knowing much about the strengths or power of a taser, is it not possible to reduce its power while still stunning the person, maybe resulting in less deaths?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

If the officer is conducting an investigation and he believes an offence was committed (you committed that offence) regardless if it is criminal/provincial/municipal you must provide the officer with your name if he asks you for it. If you don't...you may charged with obstruction.

I am not saying that the police can just walk up to you and demand you papers. It is not the gestapo. But what you dont realize is that many times a complaint has come into the police about suspicious activity. The police might see you walking down the street at night and want to talk to you so they can eliminate you as a suspect. If you say "bugger off, non of your business" you are only drawing suspicion on yourself.

A reasonable person would say yes officer my name is so and so, is there a problem?

a reasonable person might be a little bit confused have a brief "deer in the headlights" moment and ask 'why?' and 'what's going on?' which i think would be pretty reasonable questions given the situation.

now - technically that would be disobeying a police order (or at least not complying immediately). does that merit a tasering? who knows what you're gonna do next, the cops have to expect the unexpected at all times... apparently... and apparently that means tasering someone asking questions. if needing and asking for a little clarification in this situation doesn't merit a tasering, why would it in that traffic stop video?

[Eagle Eye]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

a reasonable person might be a little bit confused have a brief "deer in the headlights" moment and ask 'why?' and 'what's going on?' which i think would be pretty reasonable questions given the situation.

now - technically that would be disobeying a police order (or at least not complying immediately). does that merit a tasering? who knows what you're gonna do next, the cops have to expect the unexpected at all times... apparently... and apparently that means tasering someone asking questions. if needing and asking for a little clarification in this situation doesn't merit a tasering, why would it in that traffic stop video?

You really think that if you asked a cop "why" you would get tasered? Blowing things way out of proportion there.

If that happens then no that does not merit a taser. If you were to tell the cop to f off and walk away while he tells you to stop, then yes you deserve to be tasered or taken down.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Eagle Eye

You really think that if you asked a cop "why" you would get tasered? Blowing things way out of proportion there.

If that happens then no that does not merit a taser. If you were to tell the cop to f off and walk away while he tells you to stop, then yes you deserve to be tasered or taken down.

taken down? all for it.
taser? no.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

If that's the way you want to interpret my post, fine. But any sensible person knows that isn't what I mean.

How was I supposed to interpret it?

You said alot of people deserve to be tasered and then stated the difference between them and you is that they are" blatantly breaking the law or disobeying police officers."

You gave the description, and shoplifters and music pirates fit that description, so ....

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Eagle Eye

You really think that if you asked a cop "why" you would get tasered? Blowing things way out of proportion there.

ok, let me rephrase it a little to better match the video.
"give me your id"
"huh? why? what for?"
"GIVE ME YOUR ID!"
"what? this is ridiculous" *takes a few steps away*

ok... and - go! what's the appropriate response from the cop now? is it the taser?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

music pirates fit that description

that's up for debate! FAIR USE!

[Eagle Eye]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

taken down? all for it.
taser? no.

Whats the difference? Could it not cause serious harm by tackeling a guy from behind? I feel that a cop should be able to do both, but in the end the cop has less of a chance of getting hurt by not tackeling a guy, dont you think?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Eagle Eye

Whats the difference?

about 50,000 volts and a fair bit of pain for the guy getting tasered

I feel that a cop should be able to do both

if the situation merits it - sure. a taser used when there is an obvious threat and a situation needs to be diffused NOW is ok in my books.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

That is all irrevelant..cops get killed in a situations..Are you old enough to remember the cop who was shot on memorial drive 10+ years ago after pulling someover for speeding? Police are trained to expect the unexpected and to look for certain signs...confrontation is a bad sign... not everyone who is confrontational is going to be a danger, but how the F is a cop suppose to know that? Read his freaking mind?

Again 2 concepts

1. Expect the unexpected
2. Assume the worst.

Its my experience you give cops attitude you get it back...you are nice..you get that back too...

Not sure what this has to do with my quote but I'll respond anyway.

-Yes, police are in danger all the time. 100% agree with you there.
-No, I'm not old enough to remember that incident. I am only 9.
-Cops have a duty to judge each situation differently, and they don't have to read minds to do so. Yes, it's a very difficult part of their job, but it is still part of their job.
They can't just assume the worst and react as if every confrontational person is going to kill them. The results of that would be a lot more incidents like this.
I have a lot of sympathy for the officers involved in this incident and I'm sure they feel worse then anyone for what has happened. Their job is extremly difficult, and dangerous, but that does not meen they can't/don't make mistakes. Judgement is a mandatory part of being a good police officer and these officers misjudged.