NOVA - Intelligent Design On Trial

[4X4]

Whatever you say, Mel. I went to a private christian school until gr9 and then a catholic high school. They sure did a good job of re-telling history (esp. dark/middle ages) to keep out the crap where their organization was the strongest political entity on earth and the oppression that followed.
Today? MAybe not so glaring, but still exists. Sounds to me like you're a well rounded individual that realizes that religion - like beauty- is in the eye of the beholder. And that you don't need to take the bible literally.
Unfortunately, in many places around the world, religion oppresses the heck out of people. Christianity, islam... They're all guilty.

[Flashpoint]

I'm thankful for aliens too.

And Aliens 2.

(stay frosty)

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Whatever you say, Mel. I went to a private christian school until gr9 and then a catholic high school. They sure did a good job of re-telling history (esp. dark/middle ages) to keep out the crap where their organization was the strongest political entity on earth and the oppression that followed.
Today? MAybe not so glaring, but still exists. Sounds to me like you're a well rounded individual that realizes that religion - like beauty- is in the eye of the beholder. And that you don't need to take the bible literally.
Unfortunately, in many places around the world, religion oppresses the heck out of people. Christianity, islam... They're all guilty.

Than you must be all for the Iraq war since the US liberated the Iraqi people from their oppressors...yet they still have their religion

[4X4]

Oh zing....

[4X4]

Mel, can you say Taliban?

[kermitology]

Religion is a tool to explain that which cannot be explained. That's why it's faith. You take that leap of faith to believe in God.

In terms of ID vs Evolution in the classroom though. It's science class. I think that teaching the idea of adaptation (which is clearly fact) is the important part, not whether or not it is guided by the hand of God.

That being said.. I get irritated that the interpretations of the word of God can change to disagree with science. It used to be creation vs evolution. Then the churches made the box bigger and said, OK, what we meant to read is that thing adapt, but it's because of God. Evolution in faith I guess, but it still doesn't make sense to me.

[MarchHare]

Religion is a tool to explain that which cannot be explained. That's why it's faith. You take that leap of faith to believe in God.

Why is religion and faith necessary to explain things which cannot be explained, though?

I don't know what caused the Big Bang, or what (if anything) existed prior to the Big Bang. I don't know what happens to matter once it crosses the event horizon of a black hole. But I don't feel it necessary to invent a bogus story about an all-powerful magical space pixie to explain those things. I simply accept the fact that those things are currently unknown to scientists, but perhaps one day in the future we'll learn more about them.

It's a very big stretch to go from "I can't explain how the universe began" to "everything in the universe was created by God. Also, Jesus loves you and died for your sins."

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Mel, can you say Taliban?

take away the Taliban, you may end oppression, but the people still have their religion

[Biff]

It is always dangerous to presume that modern enlightened thought is somehow more "correct" and acceptable than traditional values and beliefs. The Nazi's persuaded an entire society that the idea of a master race and German nationalism was not only valid but was worth going to war for.

History is full of ridiculous notions that had widespread and almost universal acceptance but, ultimately, proved false. The earth was certainly flat...until Columbus sailed the wrong way to find more land and the contrary veiwpoint expressed by a tiny minority proved correct after all.

The inescapable truth is that the debate, ultimately, is about two fundamentally incompatible viewpoints. A creationist / ID / faith-based viewpoint presumes the existence of God and, consequently, begs the immediate question of what our responsiblities, if any, are towards him. A humanist viewpoint denies this assumption, and consequently requires nothing in terms of accountability to a higher power. Whichever you believe is correct will certainly shape the degree to which you are prepared to accept certain viewpoints regarding many issues, including the Origin of Life debates.

There are, of course, absolute and total idiots who in defence of the ID / creation viewpoint are willing to completely deny any scientific, reasonable, or factual things which would tend to challenge their preconceived bias. Hugely stupid, ignorant and foolish things are certainly flung about by a portion of the ID camp. However, and this is the hard truth people, there are an equal if not greater number of people who equally blindly and in ignorance follow a sometimes equally specious chain and arrive at the "certain" conclusion that classical evolutionary theory must be universally correct and is, therefore, categorical evidence that God does not exist.

The simple truth, as I understand it, is that WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE FOR HOW THE UNIVERSE BEGAN. We have theories. We have aspects of these theories which have yet to be proven. We have aspects of these theories that seem, on the surface, to be incomprehensibly impropable. We have aspects of these theories that, in fact, directly contradict the evidence at hand or the fundamental premises under which other parts of life and scientific pursuit operate. We also have a great number of under-informed, but zealous people perfectly content that the answer they believe to be true must, for some reason, BE true simply because they, or other people like them, or perhaps even a majority of people, believe it to be so.

The following link from Forbes magazine might be a similar idea to what I am trying to express;

http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2005/0620/039.html

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Why is religion and faith necessary to explain things which cannot be explained, though?

I don't know what caused the Big Bang, or what (if anything) existed prior to the Big Bang. I don't know what happens to matter once it crosses the event horizon of a black hole. But I don't feel it necessary to invent a bogus story about an all-powerful magical space pixie to explain those things. I simply accept the fact that those things are currently unknown to scientists, but perhaps one day in the future we'll learn more about them.

It's a very big stretch to go from "I can't explain how the universe began" to "everything in the universe was created by God. Also, Jesus loves you and died for your sins."

But isn't that the point? The simplist answer is always the best, and that is why different cultures believed that the spirits of their ancestors or the trees or the wind or a greater power created the universe. Hell, that was more likely at the time than thinking some "big bang" created everything.

I think the flaw of human being is that we always have to know the answers or think that we will eventually learn the answers. So people turn to religion for those answers.

Religion in the past (and currently) answers some of the tough questions in life, such as "why are we here?" and "how were we made?".

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Biff

WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE FOR HOW THE UNIVERSE BEGAN.

I think we know HOW (big bang theory, well supported by evidence), but not WHY the universe began (if that is even a relevant question).

[MarchHare]

The earth was certainly flat...until Columbus sailed the wrong way to find more land and the contrary veiwpoint expressed by a tiny minority proved correct after all.

This is oft-repeated but factually wrong. Columbus wasn't a pioneer about proving the Earth was round -- even the ancient Greeks knew it was.

http://www.phy6.org/stargaze/Scolumb.htm

Sometimes the claim is made that those who opposed Columbus thought the Earth was flat, but that wasn't the case at all. Even in ancient times sailors knew that the Earth was round and scientists not only suspected it was a sphere, but even estimated its size.

[...]

The Greek philosopher Aristotle (384-322 BC) argued in his writings that the Earth was spherical, because of the circular shadow it cast on the Moon, during a lunar eclipse. Another reason was that some stars visible from Egypt are not seen further north.

The simple truth, as I understand it, is that WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE FOR HOW THE UNIVERSE BEGAN.

There is ample evidence that the universe began with a giant explosion (the Big Bang). What there isn't evidence of, and quite possibly never will be evidence of, is what caused the Big Bang and what, if anything, existed prior to it.

[Edit]
What troutman said.

[Biff]

Another interesting read from the same Forbes columnist....

http://members.forbes.com/forbes/2007/1008/027.html

Also, I may have stated it in an unclear fashion but both following posters are correct. My point was less about whether Columbus INVENTED the idea of a round earth but rather that the idea was roundly and almost universally discredited by the masses until after he sailed. Also, the first link asks almost exactly the same question regarding the Big Bang. To whit, not whether or not it occurred but why it occured and what proceeded it given that all scientific theory seems to suggest that something must have.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Why is religion and faith necessary to explain things which cannot be explained, though?

Well it's not if that's what you choose.

Think about ancient forms of religion. Sun gods, rain gods. It's all perception.

Some people don't like the "coldness" of accepting that there is no explanation for something.

The idea of heaven is something that seems to comfort the idea of death. Sure you die, but then you go live forever with Jesus and your Mom and Dad.

[metal_geek]

I used to think that when we find life on another planet or somewhere other then earth, all the Creationist where gonna say "Well poo... This makes my arguement a little more difficult"... but now I'm sure whatever form of life we find, be it a pile of green goo, or something that looks like a grilled cheese sandwich, they're gonna say it looks like Jesus.
________
Marijuana Vaporizers

[Thor]

It was a very enjoyable show

I enjoyed the fact Dover residents overwhelmingly voted out the ID school board supporters proving there is some hope for the future.

Since ID's really have a hard time with the word "theory" lets imagine they go after the Atomic Theory, check out this gem:

http://www.talkreason.org/PrinterFri...les/dalton.cfm

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Well how about this. I saw a poll on cnn.com yesterday, asking if praying for rain would help the drought stricken southeastern US...? 46% said they believed it would help... So its really no wonder people deny evolution, it goes against "faith". A word used liberally to defend psuedoscience like ID..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071115/...hern_drought_1

Ha! Where's your evolution now, huh?

Rain. Jebus FTW. QED.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by fredr123

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071115/...hern_drought_1

Ha! Where's your evolution now, huh?

Rain. Jebus FTW. QED.

Since you asked . . .

The roof of a Baptist church in Tennessee's Marion County was heavily damaged

[burn_this_city]

Oh crap I repent I swear..

Going back to someone mentioned earlier about how it would take 1000 years to convince everyone religion is a sham.. I think it will take longer, since many people are unable to accept the fact they wont live forever.. Hence life after death.. They cling to religion or are faced with the haunting realization that aunt Mable isnt in heaven, shes actually rotting in a wooden box in the ground.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by troutman

Since you asked . . .

The roof of a Baptist church in Tennessee's Marion County was heavily damaged

Wrong religion: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ufNAFVY0Ibo