[Trade] Eichel + 3rd to Vegas for Tuch, Krebs, 1st, 3rd

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Counterpoint: Kevin Lowe

Counter Counterpoint: Everyone else.

Has anyone ever suggested that those other two are undeserving of being in the HOF?

Using the one exception to prove the premise. Shame, shame.

[stemit14]

I guess the the closest to an identical offer from Calgary would have been:

Zary + Pelletier (combined might be equivalent to Krebs)
Mangiapane/Dube
2022 1st round pick (same protection as Vegas)
2023 2nd round pick

But assuming Buffalo really liked Krebs, the flames would have had to outbid Vegas significantly in order to get the deal done. Something like this:

Zary + Coronato
Mangiapane/Dube
2022 1st round pick (unprotected)
2023 1st round pick (top 10 protected)

That’s not considering whatever Calgary would have had to do to make cap space by likely moving Zadorov and Monahan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Yeah, at this stage we know Treliving's view of his own players is just wrong.

"We can't trade players for 50 cents on the dollar!"

*Monahan gets parked on 4th line because he's bad*

"We can't trade players for 10 cents on the dollar!"

We were one of two teams at the very end that Buffalo was considering trading Eichel to, so no, Trelivings view of our players isn't wrong. Had Treliving been completely off on how he valued our players, Calgary would of been out of the Eichel running months ago.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Gilmour wasn't in his prime yet. He only became an elite centre in Toronto, after getting a surgical procedure to repair a constriction in his airway. After that, he had better fitness and endurance and could play a lot more high-intensity minutes, and it showed in his counting stats. He was never that player in Calgary, because he was physically unable to do it.

Nieuwendyk was a one-dimensional sniper in his younger days. He scored a lot of goals, but was not a good playmaker and was not good defensively. He, too, changed his game dramatically, beginning after he suffered that catastrophic knee injury in (I believe) '91. He never scored 40 goals again, but was a much more complete player. But he was never a franchise centreman.


Those were the elite centres in the NHL at that time. Gilmour and Nieuwendyk weren't.

Gilmour was an elite C in Calgary and criminally underrated by people like you it would seem.

You know a big reason why the Calgary Flames steamrollered the NHL with 117 points and plus 128 goal differential? They had two elite centers, the most important position on the ice. And they rather easily handled one of your elite C's in the playoffs.

What a weird argument to make. Very random.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by dino7c

everyone should be on the fence

100% rests on what Eichel is when he comes back...nobody can say anything else with certainty.

What if he never plays again?

Originally Posted by dino7c

You should probably take another look at the roster, and the record thus far

Honestly the 6-1 record means nothing to me at this point other than just enjoying the ride and I don't think it should figure into consideration of the risk and whether they wanted to take it on or not. It's way too small of a sample size. I truly hope it keeps up, but I'll judge the season on its sum at the end. They were amazing two years ago and got completely worked in the playoffs and the only thing that matters when it comes down to it is playoff success and winning the Cup or at least going on a deep run.

For me Coleman Gio are the only major changes. I like Gudbranson, Pitlick and Vladar so far but to me none of those moves are hugely substantive. Sutter coming in is probably the most impactful change they've made since signing Markstrom and I do really like that move. If you're consistently not winning playoff series' deep, change something should be the bottom line.

[SuperMatt18]

So Friedman reportedly said the Flames offer was: 3 top prospects, 1st, Monahan.

Honestly if that's true then Adams took a worse offer IMO.

Seriously I think a problem these GMs have in trades is that they fixate on one guy and will overlook better overall packages because they fall in love.

I think Ottawa did it with Brannstrom.

Vegas seems to have done that with Krebs here.

If it was:

Zary, Prospect, Prospect, Monahan, 1st

vs

Krebs, Tuch, 1st, 3rd

I'm not sure it really matters who those two prospects were, it might still be a better deal than what Vegas got. And if those two propsects were Pelletier and Valimaki as an example then it's a way better offer than Vegas offer.

There were rumors that Buffalo really wanted and coveted Krebs, and holy smokes if they overlooked other offers because of that then they really overrate that player.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Has anyone ever suggested that those other two are undeserving of being in the HOF?

Using the one exception to prove the premise.

No, but someone suggested HOF = elite, period

To which I say: Kevin Lowe (also Gillies, Cheevers, Anderson, Watson, Carbonneau, Duff, Boivin).

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Matty81

The flames trotting out the exact same roster as last year minus Gio plus Coleman and expecting a hugely different outcome, to me defies logic a little.

But it isn't ‘the exact same roster’, it's turned over by more than 25%.

Out since the end of last season: Mark Giordano, Josh Leivo, Nikita Nesterov, Joakim Nordstrom, Derek Ryan.

In: Blake Coleman, Erik Gudbranson, Oliver Kylington (as a regular), Trevor Lewis, Tyler Pitlick, Dan Vladar, Nikita Zadorov.

(I count Kylington because he only played 8 games last year and never in the top four. I don't count players who were only on the roster for a few games.)

The team is bigger, heavier, faster, and has got rid of several sub-replacement players. They now have four forward lines and three defensive pairings of legitimate NHLers, which is something they haven't been able to say for years. They also have a coach who slots those players intelligently, uses them effectively, and gets them to play a smart, uptempo game right from the opening puck drop.

So in fact, it isn't the same team, and it hasn't been playing like the same team, and frankly, what defies logic is not to expect a different outcome.

[AustinL_NHL]

So the Flames have lost out on...

1) Taylor Hall (thinking they had a better offer)
2) Mark Stone (went to bed thinking they had a deal done)
3) Jason Zucker (last minute complications)
4) Nazem Kadri (rejected trade)
5) Jack Eichel (thinking they had a better offer)

Fun :')

[dino7c]

/convo

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

So Friedman reportedly said the Flames offer was: 3 top prospects, 1st, Monahan.

Honestly if that's true then Adams took a worse offer IMO.

Seriously I think a problem these GMs have in trades is that they fixate on one guy and will overlook better overall packages because they fall in love.

I think Ottawa did it with Brannstrom.

Vegas seems to have done that with Krebs here.

If it was:

Zary, Prospect, Prospect, Monahan, 1st

vs

Krebs, Tuch, 1st, 3rd

I'm not sure it really matters who those two prospects were, it might still be a better deal than what Vegas got. And if those two propsects were Pelletier and Valimaki as an example then it's a way better offer than Vegas offer.

There were rumors that Buffalo really wanted and coveted Krebs, and holy smokes if they overlooked other offers because of that then they really overrate that player.

The most mystifying thing about a fixation on Krebs if true is he looks terrible in the NHL right now... he is playing 15 minutes a night and he is a black hole production wise

[dino7c]

Tuch is also supposedly a home town hero in Buffalo and wants to be there...had Sabres jammies

Pretty rare thing for Buffalo to find these days probably, most other players would be looking for the exit

[Calgary14]

Interview with Jack Eichel from earlier today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0tN2uymG8U

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

So the Flames have lost out on...

1) Taylor Hall (thinking they had a better offer)
2) Mark Stone (went to bed thinking they had a deal done)
3) Jason Zucker (last minute complications)
4) Nazem Kadri (rejected trade)
5) Jack Eichel (thinking they had a better offer)

Fun :')

Coincidence.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

So Friedman reportedly said the Flames offer was: 3 top prospects, 1st, Monahan.

Honestly if that's true then Adams took a worse offer IMO.

Seriously I think a problem these GMs have in trades is that they fixate on one guy and will overlook better overall packages because they fall in love.

I think Ottawa did it with Brannstrom.

Vegas seems to have done that with Krebs here.

If it was:

Zary, Prospect, Prospect, Monahan, 1st

vs

Krebs, Tuch, 1st, 3rd

I'm not sure it really matters who those two prospects were, it might still be a better deal than what Vegas got. And if those two propsects were Pelletier and Valimaki as an example then it's a way better offer than Vegas offer.

There were rumors that Buffalo really wanted and coveted Krebs, and holy smokes if they overlooked other offers because of that then they really overrate that player.

I think the package is better from Calgary but a lot depends on Monahan versus Tuch as well. And Tuch has a few points Monahan doesn't - age, contract, progression curve, etc. Tuch does have surgery comeback questions, but I guess so does Monny still. That Tuch contract is hard to ignore, and he's still in their time window.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

So why do I still feel so pissed off? Lol

I think the thing that pisses me off the most is that once again it's Vegas who gets the player while the Flames are the runner-up. That team just seems to keep getting the breaks. I still think it's bull#### they didn't have to lose anyone this summer to Seattle.

But like you I was a little nervous about how it would affect the team if any roster players were included and if he would be the same player when he finally came back or if he would take a step back.

[CroCop]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

So the Flames have lost out on...

1) Taylor Hall (thinking they had a better offer)
2) Mark Stone (went to bed thinking they had a deal done)
3) Jason Zucker (last minute complications)
4) Nazem Kadri (rejected trade)
5) Jack Eichel (thinking they had a better offer)

Fun :')

In addition to some reports they were in on Josh Anderson and Pierre Luc-Dubois as well

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Gilmour was an elite C in Calgary and criminally underrated by people like you it would seem.

Gilmour was very good. He was not in the same conversation as the big four of Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, and Messier.

You know a big reason why the Calgary Flames steamrollered the NHL with 117 points and plus 128 goal differential? They had two elite centers, the most important position on the ice. And they rather easily handled one of your elite C's in the playoffs.

As opposed to all those other years when that elite C handled them? Good to hear.

That was Gretzky's first year with the Kings. He scored a bushel of points, of course, and so did Bernie Nicholls, but the team was seriously lacking in depth and had no defence to speak of. They gave up more than 4 goals per game, which is the principal reason they finished 26 points behind the Flames in the regular season.

The Flames that year didn't win because they had superior top-end talent. They provably did not, with only one player in the top 10 in scoring (and he was a RW, by the way). They won because they had unbelievable depth. Theo Fleury scored 0.94 points per game playing on the fourth line. Rob Ramage, who had been a top-pairing defenceman in St. Louis, spent most of the season on the third pairing.

What a weird argument to make. Very random.

It's an argument soundly based in facts from someone who followed the team religiously and knew the league at the time. What kind of argument would you consider not weird?

[bax]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

So the Flames have lost out on...

1) Taylor Hall (thinking they had a better offer)
2) Mark Stone (went to bed thinking they had a deal done)
3) Jason Zucker (last minute complications)
4) Nazem Kadri (rejected trade)
5) Jack Eichel (thinking they had a better offer)

Fun :')

Stone wasn’t traded here because he wasn’t coming with an extension, like he was for Vegas.

Sucks we’re not a state tax free destination but that’s life. Just more evidence that Flames need to build through the draft

[Eric Vail]

Eichel had 2 goals last year. His career best is 82 points. He has not improved his team in Buffalo, as they have been in the basement pretty much his entire time in the NHL. Buffalo is having an excellent start to the season, without Eichel. He now is having a major surgery to correct his neck.

I am glad the Flames didn't sell the farm on him. I am not sure he is the elite centre everyone thinks he is. He is a very good NHL player, but unable to make a bad hockey team into a poor one.