Redford: Buyers Remorse?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Should government officials be bunking up in order to save costs? It is going to cost thousands of dollars for each hotel room for the course of the trip, that isn't including food or any other such as travel costs either. Unless there is obvious irregularities such as Bev Oda I can't help but think that I would give the premier the benefit of the doubt.

When health care, education, police, fire etc are expected to do more with less I would expect our leaders to lead by example. Do you have to travel first class and stay in the best hotels or the best resturants?

I don't trust politicians to give them the benefit of the doubt. They should have to give accounting of thier expenses like everyone else in the business world and be open and transparent about it.

[Barnission]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

The reason there is no point to negotiating with her is she has no incentive to negotiate in good faith. She's going to be ousted in the next election barring something miraculous, such as being able to bring home an absurd share of the royalties from the pipeline. As such she has no reason to be make reasonable demands, because unless she's bringing back an absurd amount of royalty revenue, the people of her province will vote her out (and when I mean absurd, I mean closer to 20% from the 8% they would currently get).

At that point it is too stupid economically for the people of BC to pass up, allowing Christy to sneak in the back door to get re-elected. But if she agrees to the pipeline conditions as is, she'll be tossed out right quick. Christy's first concern is her own self-survival, and as such I'd have no interest in negotiating with her.

Sorry for the late response.

Anyways, right now she's not going to argue in "bad" faith, but as the weeks go her attitude will change, that's for sure.

But what I really want to talk about is you saying, "At that point it is too stupid economically for the people of BC to pass up". That is not true, 'we' voted out the HST, which was unbelievably stupid by any count to do so. I thought the HST was a good tax, a very good replacement to GST/PST, but that's not really the point. There is no sane, logical argument behind getting rid of a tax (it's not that horrible) and then re-pay the federal government well over a billion dollars. That's a horrible idea, but sadly the people here will never understand how that will come back to haunt us.

So my point is that the people here in British Columbia have a history of rejecting logical and sound ideas, and because the BC NDP will most likely be elected this spring, there's a small window to getting this project confirmed. Redford knows that, so she's not going to close the door shut on Clark's face.

If the pipeline ends up getting rejected by BC, which will be through the NDP, I may get fed up and move to Alberta and seclude myself. Rejecting the HST and the pipeline? Blah.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Dion

I expect the hotel costs are going to be alot higher than usual. It's just that $83,300 for a trip like that seems a bit excessive IMO. Especially when you have the common folk coming and staying for these Olympics

Excessive as compared to what though? You already said you have no idea what the costs should be. That means you really can't say with any sincerity that they're getting a bargain or spending too much.

Originally Posted by Dion

When health care, education, police, fire etc are expected to do more with less I would expect our leaders to lead by example. Do you have to travel first class and stay in the best hotels or the best resturants?

I don't trust politicians to give them the benefit of the doubt. They should have to give accounting of thier expenses like everyone else in the business world and be open and transparent about it.

You should know that people in the business world eat at the best restaurants and stay at great hotels specifically because the faceless corporation is paying. They also invite other people to dine with them and choose awesome restaurants so that they can eat there and have the business pay. Of course there are other reasons (legitimate business), but don't think that this doesn't happen.

I'm not even getting into the comment about other services. Its a pure apples and oranges comparison for a lot of reasons.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Dion

When health care, education, police, fire etc are expected to do more with less I would expect our leaders to lead by example. Do you have to travel first class and stay in the best hotels or the best resturants?

I don't trust politicians to give them the benefit of the doubt. They should have to give accounting of thier expenses like everyone else in the business world and be open and transparent about it.

If I was travelling for work, and was expecting to get any work done while I was on the plane, I would think first class would be the best way to do that.

Of course, I assume that Redford and co are not doing that, and are using the opportunity to eat caviar off the nipples of strippers and drink champagne from their belly buttons.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by opendoor

But why are private schools so expensive if they're so much more efficient? Shouldn't their efficiency allow them to provide a superior education at a similar price point as the per student allocation for public schools (about $8K in BC). Why do day students at most decent prep schools have to pay $15-20K in tuition?

As others have said the primary benefits of private school is the networking with rich families and placing your children in a more advanced environment which is allowed to exclude lower caliber students.

Having gone to public school, worked at a private school, and having friends who've gone to both I can assure you that the actual education is quite similar. I can also assure you that there is a lot of waste in private schools as well. They're usually flush with cash from both high tuition and millions of dollars in endowments from alumni. Some of them spend an inordinate amount of money on pageantry and schmoozing in order to maintain their image rather than sinking the money into educational tools.

Obviously there are exceptions, but in my opinion most public education in Canada provides exceptional value.

If what you say is true... then why do Private Schools exist, and at quite a high rate?



It seems many must disagree with your viewpoint?

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Canada has a mix of public and private providers...and while our Healthcare system can definitely be improved...can you kindly point to these obvious systems that are clearly better?

Japan, Switzerland, Italy, Australia, Germany to start.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Nor can an argument rest on your anecdotal evidence. Do you have any real evidence that the Canadian health care system is "useless"? Do you have evidence that suggests that the outcomes in Canada are markedly poorer than those in other countries. I mean, if the entire system is useless it shouldn't be hard to point to some indicators that back this up.

One useful tool might be to consider the number of people who choose to leave our health care system to seek care elsewhere, usually the US. I'm sure everyone can list a few people they know who have done so. There was recently the mother with quadruplets who was flown to the US because there was no Canadian hospitals capable of handling that kind of birth. Yet I've never heard of an American coming to Canada to recieve health care.

There are real and clear issues with Canadian health care. I don't believe it's 'useless' in any way, but there are definate problems as well.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

If what you say is true... then why do Private Schools exist, and at quite a high rate?

Price effect on perceived quality, exclusivity, better marketing...

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

One useful tool might be to consider the number of people who choose to leave our health care system to seek care elsewhere, usually the US. I'm sure everyone can list a few people they know who have done so. There was recently the mother with quadruplets who was flown to the US because there was no Canadian hospitals capable of handling that kind of birth. Yet I've never heard of an American coming to Canada to recieve health care.

There are real and clear issues with Canadian health care. I don't believe it's 'useless' in any way, but there are definate problems as well.

Then I guess you've never watched Sicko? And yeah I know, liberal Michael Moore blah blah blah. But many Americans who have dual citizenship, or have a relation with a Canadian, travel across the border to use our health care.

[MarchHare]

Yet I've never heard of an American coming to Canada to recieve health care.

Than you haven't been paying attention very well. Sarah Palin (of all people) infamously admitted to travelling to Canada to receive healthcare.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/20...canada-travel/

PALIN: We used to hustle over the border for health care we received in Canada.

From that same article:

Palin’s experience also highlights the fact that American medical-tourism to Canada is common, despite conservatives’ claims that Canada’s health care system drives Canadians into the states. “Every year, thousands of Americans undergo surgery in other countries” where they can receive the same care “at half the price.” “In 2007, an estimated 750,000 Americans traveled abroad for medical care; this number is anticipated to increase to six million by 2010″ — far outpacing the number of Canadians coming into the United States for medical treatment.

[GP_Matt]

I am not arguing in favour of private health care because for the most part, I think we have a pretty great system in Canada, but there are definitely a few things wrong with the system we have.

As an example, my doctors office was purchased and moved to Walmart. Now, if I want to go to the doctor I have to go to Walmart. There is something about the Walmart in Grande Prairie that seems to get my blood pressure up, I don't know if it is the people or the store or what, but I get annoyed just thinking about going to Walmart here. Anyway, with the system that we have I am now forced to go there for as long as I live in Grande Prairie. I know it sounds petty but in a private system I would have the ability to change doctors. My wife doesn't like her doctor and has been trying to find a new one for years, but no doctor in town will talk to a patient who already has a doctor so again, as long as she lives here she will have the same doctor.

[MarchHare]

That seems strange -- you should be able to change doctors if you want to. AFAIK, there's nothing in the Canada Health Act that prevents citizens from choosing their own doctor (and switching if desired).

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Slava

Excessive as compared to what though? You already said you have no idea what the costs should be. That means you really can't say with any sincerity that they're getting a bargain or spending too much.

With Redford and 5 members of her party going to London it works out to about $2,800 per person for of the 5 days they are there. As a whole it`s $16,800 per day. I don`t need to understand what the costs might be to know that`s an obscene amount of dollars spent each day.

You should know that people in the business world eat at the best restaurants and stay at great hotels specifically because the faceless corporation is paying. They also invite other people to dine with them and choose awesome restaurants so that they can eat there and have the business pay. Of course there are other reasons (legitimate business), but don't think that this doesn't happen.

I'm not even getting into the comment about other services. Its a pure apples and oranges comparison for a lot of reasons.

My brother travels over 100 times a year on business and has a travel budget he must abide too. He doesn't fly first class nor does he stay in the best hotels but still manages to get the job done for the company he works for. Not everyone has an unlimited budget to work from like the govt does.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

That seems strange -- you should be able to change doctors if you want to. AFAIK, there's nothing in the Canada Health Act that prevents citizens from choosing their own doctor (and switching if desired).

I thought it was strange as well, but there is also nothing in the act that says a doctor has to take you as a patient. Once you have a doctor all the others are too concerned about rocking the boat.
If someone doesn't get along with their doctor their only other choices are walk in clinics and hospitals. (Also sucking it up and dealing with your doctor is an option, but my wife didn't like that suggestion)

[jammies]

If you think every problem can be solved by the application of a single remedy, your thinking is wrong. Privatization of every conceivable service is not a panacea, any more than omnipresent state control is. Deciding the correct mix of private/gov't functions by reference to an ideology is idiocy.

"Efficiency" is not necessarily a virtue. I could have an "efficient" immigration service, for example, by simply turning back all applicants that didn't have 10 million dollars to buy their way into the country. One form, with an attached envelope to include your cheque for the full amount of your "processing fee"! What could be more efficient than that? Or I could have an "efficient" justice system by assuming anyone arrested is guilty, and sending them directly to prison without all the expense of courts and trials. Boom! All kinds of savings there!

Or, alternatively, the idea that efficiency is the god before which all else should bow could be discarded as the myth that it is. There is no point in delivering efficient services if those services are not what a society actually needs, and profits can get in the way of needful service just like government can get in the way of efficiency.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Dion

With Redford and 5 members of her party going to London it works out to about $2,800 per person for of the 5 days they are there. As a whole it`s $16,800 per day. I don`t need to understand what the costs might be to know that`s an obscene amount of dollars spent each day.



My brother travels over 100 times a year on business and has a travel budget he must abide too. He doesn't fly first class nor does he stay in the best hotels but still manages to get the job done for the company he works for. Not everyone has an unlimited budget to work from like the govt does.

Sure as long as the airfare is free? I just looked on Air Canada and to fly to London for 5 people today and not the best executive class, but the business class anyway it would be just under $37,000. Sure thats ridiculous, but its nearly half of the money and that figure could be way higher with business class airfare.

I have no idea what a decent hotel costs you in London these days, but $800-$1000 a night during the worlds largest sporting event is hardly unreasonable. Then you multiply that by 5 and you have what 70-some grand before you have taken a cab anywhere, eaten a meal or really done anything else.

Is it more than I would spend on a family vacation? Sure. Does spending $80k to generate millions in investments and tourism make sense though? Absolutely.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

I am not arguing in favour of private health care because for the most part, I think we have a pretty great system in Canada, but there are definitely a few things wrong with the system we have.

As an example, my doctors office was purchased and moved to Walmart. Now, if I want to go to the doctor I have to go to Walmart. There is something about the Walmart in Grande Prairie that seems to get my blood pressure up, I don't know if it is the people or the store or what, but I get annoyed just thinking about going to Walmart here. Anyway, with the system that we have I am now forced to go there for as long as I live in Grande Prairie. .

You only have to go to Wal Mart if he is the only doctor in town. If we had a private system, one can assume supply and demand would dictate that a town with one doctor in a socialized system would also only have one doctor in a private system.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

You only have to go to Wal Mart if he is the only doctor in town. If we had a private system, one can assume supply and demand would dictate that a town with one doctor in a socialized system would also only have one doctor in a private system.

Nope, lots of doctors. None of them will talk to a patient with a family doctor already in town. I imagine that it makes it awkward when they have their doctor parties and one has stolen patients from another.

[Tinordi]

Get upset about business travel costs to London during Olympics...

...yawn at billions misspent on crime bill and fighter jets.

[Tinordi]

My brother travels over 100 times a year on business and has a travel budget he must abide too. He doesn't fly first class nor does he stay in the best hotels but still manages to get the job done for the company he works for. Not everyone has an unlimited budget to work from like the govt does.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Premier should fly coach?