Who's getting the H1N1 shot?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by edn88

How about this:

Everyone who gets the vaccine gets a little card/armband/tattoo/RFID implant saying they got the vaccine.

And in a month (or whatever suitable length of time) anyone who doesn't have that little card/armband/tattoo/RFID implant thing trying to use the health care system to be treated for H1N1 can be given a body bag and can wait quietly in the morgue...

I guess what I am saying is that although I will be sad for those who get sick when they deliberately avoided getting the vaccine, but don't clog up the health care system...

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem...

In that case, anyone who gets the vaccine and suffers some unforseen side effect should forfeit their right to use the health care system.

That might be the way things are where you're from, but that is not how we do it here.

[photon]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Yes, thats what I want, more of my tax dollars wasted to provide for the 1 in 30 year chance of a possible pandemic.

Just to be accurate, it is pandemic by the definition of the word pandemic.

Part of the problem is the media tosses around the word pandemic but doesn't define it, and people hear pandemic and think about some movie where 3/4ths of the world's population dies in 4 days.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I have already declared myself to be with the wait and see crowd. Today on the way into work they said on the radio that 12 people have died in AB from H1N1. I'd need to know what state of health they were in, ages etc. to affect my decision. Also there are always a number of deaths from the flu every year.

Once they start on the general population and with more information I'll make an informed decision.

Wait and see? That doesn't sound smart. We're supposed to go out and get it without thinking for ourselves. You must have blind faith in the nanny state.

[photon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's based on the number of cases in North America since the virus has been identified here. I'd be shocked if it is too much more than that by the end of the pandemic.

Typically it's 5 to 15% that get infected by influenza each year (depending on how well they choose the vaccines being one factor).

http://www.euro.who.int/influenza

Typical death rate for seasonal influenza is less than 0.1%, it remains to be see if this will be significantly different (I don't think it looks worse at this point, but it's early in the flu season), but part of the risk is that this is a brand new virus so infection rates could be higher without the vaccines.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Wait and see? That doesn't sound smart. We're supposed to go out and get it without thinking for ourselves. You must have blind faith in the nanny state.

What are you afraid of??

You afraid the vaccine's going to turn you into a zombie?

A communist?

Make your dick fall off?

What???

I've been getting flu vaccines every year since 1999. That's because in 1998 I got a horrible case of the flu. It was so bad that I couldn't walk. I was stuck in my bed for a week, and I was still sick a month after.

If you're not getting it because of some philosophical rhetoric, realize that the only person that really cares about your stance is you.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Shazam

What are you afraid of??

You afraid the vaccine's going to turn you into a zombie?

A communist?

Make your dick fall off?

What???

I've been getting flu vaccines every year since 1999. That's because in 1998 I got a horrible case of the flu. It was so bad that I couldn't walk. I was stuck in my bed for a week, and I was still sick a month after.

If you're not getting it because of some philosophical rhetoric, realize that the only person that really cares about your stance is you.

Actually, I probably am going to get it... not 100% sure yet... but it's not even available where I am until November 16th (for healthy males), so there is no hurry.

I just think that there is measurable risk and people should not be made to feel inferior if they choose not to get it.

But if you really want to know what the fear is based, it's based on the very valid possibilty that rushed vaccines in the past HAVE caused negative health effect:

http://www.autoimmune.com/GWSGen.html

The data establishing these links is presented in the peer-reviewed February 2000 and August 2002 articles. The published findings (1) strongly suggest that the GWS-like illness being reported by all of the various patient groups is the same illness, (2) strongly suggest that the contaminated vaccine caused the illness in the AVIP group, and (3) further suggest that squalene contamination of one or more 1990-1991-era vaccines accounts for the GWS cases from that era.

(Squalene is in the vaccine Canadians are receiving)

http://www.rense.com/general87/mill.htm

http://www.chiroweb.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=31995

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10640454

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

I guess just under 50% of the people who voted in this thread are just plain stupid.

Hmmm...that number does seem low. The percentage of stupid people should be much higher.

[octothorp]

So health Canada ordered another 200,000 emergency non-adjuvanted doses for pregnant women; has Alberta health care said how they're going to distribute this (given that they don't currently have separate handling for high risk groups like other provinces do)? Will it be done at the same clinics as the adjuvanted version? I've looked on their website and they don't seem to have any updated information about the extra non-adjuvanted doses.

I'm trying to decide whether I should go now and get the adjuvanted strain, and then take my wife next week to get the non-adjuvanted when it's available, or whether I should just wait and take her at the same time.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

But if you really want to know what the fear is based, it's based on the very valid possibilty that rushed vaccines in the past HAVE caused negative health effect:

But we're not talking about those vaccines; we're talking about the 2009 H1N1 vaccine.

[Red_Baron]

Okay people. Those of you that believe that we are all going to get it eventually-look at it this way.
This is an example, not confirmed numbers:
If 0.1% of people that contract the seasonal flu die and 10% of Canada's population (call it 30 million), 300,000 people will get the seasonal flu and that would be 3000 deaths.
If the swine flu is not as lethal as the seasonal flu (which is preached by some on this board) and only kills at say half the rate (0.05%) of its victims and say 50% of the population does not get vaccinated-and of those 50%, half of them get infected by the swine flu (7.5 million people-which would be very conservative as this flu is extremely contagious), that would be an additional 3750 people. Of those 3750 people several would be in the prime of their lives as this flu has shown that it is not just the very young and very old that die from it.

My father-in-law has leukemia, I'd hate to be the one who brought home the swine flu as his immune system is compromised.

I think most of the resistance is still deeply rooted in the overall fear of needles and the campaigns against vaccinations in general are fueled by people who fear needles.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Sliver

But we're not talking about those vaccines; we're talking about the 2009 H1N1 vaccine.

Yes, but the H1N1 vaccine hasn't gone through the rigorous testing that other vaccines have (just like the vaccine in the links I posted).

That is my entire point. People are saying that "vaccines are safe", and I'm saying that not all vaccines are created equal and not all have been proven to be safe. The H1N1 vaccine has little data on it compared to other vaccines so taking it does pose a risk moreso than the regular flu vaccine and other vaccines that have been studied.

In order for the H1N1 vaccine to go through the same testing as other vaccines, the studies won't be done until 2010. Until then, we don't know for sure what the big picture is.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I have it on pretty good authority the vaccine is safe and necessary to prevent the spread of H1N1. I'm really curious to hear who you think trumps those organizations. I mean, this is a slam dunk and it's certainly not a matter of opinion. It's right versus wrong, and you my friend are very wrong and it's putting many people at risk.

Guess what? I've read them too. And off you go again. Not only am I foolish, shameful but I'm at threat to mankind now? Try and be a tad less hysteric?

It IS NOT a slam dunk. It is best available evidence based on the information available at this moment and time. Can you get that through your head? It's your opinion based on the evidence available at this moment and time just as it's my opinion and the German heads of their subsequent organisations that the science is incomplete.

For the record. And get this into your head. I have said nowhere that it was unsafe. I am simply commenting on the fact that there is incomplete knowledge on the subject matter at this time.

And it's not right vs wrong, it's not black vs white. If it was this poll would be a "slam-dunk" 100% for. If it was >19% of Germans would be getting vaccinated.

It's a matter of individual risk perception. You made your decision based on your risk perception. I'll do the same. Can't you get it into your head that based on your risk perception whilst you may see those that do unlike you as shameful, foolish and a risk to others I reserve the right based on my risk perception at this moment in time to consider you hysterical.

Congratulations on YOUR decision based on YOUR risk perception. Now get off your high horse, calm down, cut out the hysteria and allow people to make their own informed decisions based on their risk perceptions.

And FTR I remain undecided, not opposed to the vaccine. And FTR my SIL is a family doctor in France. She won't discourage her patients from getting it should they want it but at the same time she won't be encouraging them to get it either.

Looks like across the medical community there are split opinions just like in this thread and reflected in the poll. Hardly "black or white" or a "slam dunk". I'll pass onto her that she is foolish and shameful also.

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I just think that there is measurable risk and people should not be made to feel inferior if they choose not to get it.

Thank You!

[4X4]

Can I carry it, even if I don't get sick from it? Or if I get the shot, does that mean that I am eliminated as a potential carrier? I get the shot, and there's no way that I'll pass anything on to RedBaron's FIL, or anyone's kids? I'll be safe to line up at Timmy's and I wont accidentally pass it on to the malnourished homeless guy who saved enough for a cup of coffee?

If so, I'll get over my irrational fear of needles and get it done. Otherwise, I've got better things to do than to stand in line for two hours to prevent something that I've got a pretty slim chance of catching.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I'm gonna go ahead and make a smart ass comment here.

You don't know what "pandemic" means.

I know. Pandemic already implies a bigger scale than city wide. I used it a little out of context but you see what I mean.

[Red_Baron]

Rethinking things a bit, my Father in law will be getting the Vaccine early on due to his compromised immune system but I'd still rather protect myself as well even though the percentages of dying from it are low but if more people get it, the more people will die from it.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Yes, but the H1N1 vaccine hasn't gone through the rigorous testing that other vaccines have (just like the vaccine in the links I posted).

That is my entire point. People are saying that "vaccines are safe", and I'm saying that not all vaccines are created equal and not all have been proven to be safe. The H1N1 vaccine has little data on it compared to other vaccines so taking it does pose a risk moreso than the regular flu vaccine and other vaccines that have been studied.

In order for the H1N1 vaccine to go through the same testing as other vaccines, the studies won't be done until 2010. Until then, we don't know for sure what the big picture is.

You do realize there's a new flu vaccine every year, right?

What, in your mind, would be acceptable amount of testing? What tests should be run? What's an acceptable risk level to you?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Shazam

You do realize there's a new flu vaccine every year, right?

Not with an adjuvant.

I'm just curious (hence my question to AC and Lchoy) given that it's supposed to boost and broaden immunity and that they are supposedly safe been used in other vaccines as to why it's only been approved by Health Canada this year? Why's it taken a pandemic to get them approved?

Wouldn't it make sense given the variability in seasonal flu viruses to have a more broad spectrum protection in the past?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Shazam

You do realize there's a new flu vaccine every year, right?

What, in your mind, would be acceptable amount of testing? What tests should be run? What's an acceptable risk level to you?

It's actually variations of the same vaccine. The formula stays virtually the same. The H1N1 vaccine going out right now is quite a bit different. It's more like a "stop-gap" vaccine filled with boosters.

BTW, you mentioned that you get the regular flu vaccine because of the severe case you had in 1998... well, most people in life experience severe flus. I had one in the same year and had to go on an IV... I was completely out of it for 2 days (I thought I was talking to people telepathically who weren't even in the room)... so it's not like I don't have an informed opinion also.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Guess what? I've read them too. And off you go again. Not only am I foolish, shameful but I'm at threat to mankind now? Try and be a tad less hysteric?

It IS NOT a slam dunk. It is best available evidence based on the information available at this moment and time. Can you get that through your head? It's your opinion based on the evidence available at this moment and time just as it's my opinion and the German heads of their subsequent organisations that the science is incomplete.

For the record. And get this into your head. I have said nowhere that it was unsafe. I am simply commenting on the fact that there is incomplete knowledge on the subject matter at this time.

And it's not right vs wrong, it's not black vs white. If it was this poll would be a "slam-dunk" 100% for. If it was >19% of Germans would be getting vaccinated.

It's a matter of individual risk perception. You made your decision based on your risk perception. I'll do the same. Can't you get it into your head that based on your risk perception whilst you may see those that do unlike you as shameful, foolish and a risk to others I reserve the right based on my risk perception at this moment in time to consider you hysterical.

Congratulations on YOUR decision based on YOUR risk perception. Now get off your high horse, calm down, cut out the hysteria and allow people to make their own informed decisions based on their risk perceptions.

And FTR I remain undecided, not opposed to the vaccine. And FTR my SIL is a family doctor in France. She won't discourage her patients from getting it should they want it but at the same time she won't be encouraging them to get it either.

Looks like across the medical community there are split opinions just like in this thread and reflected in the poll. Hardly "black or white" or a "slam dunk". I'll pass onto her that she is foolish and shameful also.

Thank You!

I don't know, when I read the tone of your response my first thought is you need to calm down lol. It's funny you think the same thing about me.

Anywho, we can agree to disagree. You asked me where I was getting my information and I spent a lot of time (about 45 minutes) pulling it all together for you, which seemed to get you a little hot under the collar.

I still don't know what evidence you are using to support your opinion as I haven't seen you provide any (unless I missed it - this is a long thread). Would be nice to see where you're coming from on this, but I guess if you don't care enough to provide me with any I won't worry about it.

[photon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Yes, but the H1N1 vaccine hasn't gone through the rigorous testing that other vaccines have (just like the vaccine in the links I posted).

That is my entire point. People are saying that "vaccines are safe", and I'm saying that not all vaccines are created equal and not all have been proven to be safe. The H1N1 vaccine has little data on it compared to other vaccines so taking it does pose a risk moreso than the regular flu vaccine and other vaccines that have been studied.

In order for the H1N1 vaccine to go through the same testing as other vaccines, the studies won't be done until 2010. Until then, we don't know for sure what the big picture is.

I think this is a fair comment, though as always the devil is in the details..

While the H1N1 vaccine isn't exactly like the seasonal ones, it isn't like it's a brand new vaccine either. This is where real expertise would be important; how is the H1N1 produced, how different is the process, at the points of difference how is it different and how much potential risk could be introduced, that sort of thing.

It would be very interesting to talk to someone who makes these or really understands the making of them to comment on that kind of thing, to quantify the risk.

Obviously most in the medical community rate the risk low enough to warrant going forward, but without knowing how those risks have been quantified and evaluated, neither you nor I can make an informed judgment about the risks of the H1N1 vaccine with respect to what you are talking about.