Who's getting the H1N1 shot?

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by edn88

If you don't get the H1N1 shot, and end up getting sick, do you expect to use the public health system?

Hell ya!!

[edn88]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Deal! But that rule has to apply to anyone who drinks, smoke, doesn't use sun screen, doesn't exercise, are fat, etc.

So basically if you don't take good care of yourself you can't use the health care system. Make sense, right?

I'm down with that.

[flip]

Originally Posted by edn88

Frankly you just called me an idiot - you just used about 40 more words to do it. Whatever, lets move on. What part of my post don't you like? The body bag comment - probably a little melodramatic, maybe I should have said - just send people home that have gotten really sick with H1N1 and that elected to not get the shot (but effectively you are possibly sending them home to die). And I would hope it is pretty obvious that none of that would be practical anyway, so let me ask the question a different way:

If you don't get the H1N1 shot, and end up getting sick, do you expect to use the public health system?

Yes, and I've earned it. I'll derail this discussion for a second but only to prove a point. Although I'll admit the analogy isn't perfect. Do you have winter tires? No? Well then you can just die on the side of the road because if you crash you don't deserve to be saved. Do you skydive? Snowboard? Smoke? Are you fat? Do you always wear a seatbelt? Do you talk on the phone while driving? Do you do anything in your life that may put your life/health at risk?

If you do any of these things then I think you are a burden on the health care system. I am totally safe, have only ever been to the hospital to visit people who are in there and as such feel as though if I get H1N1 I have the right to go get treatment.

Furthermore, if you don't like our healthcare system move to the US. Call me irresponsible for not getting the H1N1 shot but quite frankly I'd like to see where this goes first. Maybe you all die in 6 months because the shot was actually bad. Maybe H1N1 goes away quietly and no one notices. Anyone remember West Nile? Maybe Calgary sees a pandemic and I should have gotten the shot and you can gladly pass my body on the side of the road.

Also, since you are obviously a qualified doctor and an expert on the H1N1 virus, can you please explain to me exactly what my risk is? What exactly are the side effects, if any, of me getting or not getting the shot? What are the chances that H1N1 will become a city wide pandemic? Country wide? Worldwide?


Oh that is right you have no idea because you are talking out of your ass.


Now seriously, give me your license plate number so that I can throw my hot coffee at your freezing body on the side of the road if I ever pass you by because I think you should drive safer, not on the phone and with winter tires.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by flip

Yes, and I've earned it. I'll derail this discussion for a second but only to prove a point. Although I'll admit the analogy isn't perfect. Do you have winter tires? No? Well then you can just die on the side of the road because if you crash you don't deserve to be saved. Do you skydive? Snowboard? Smoke? Are you fat? Do you always wear a seatbelt? Do you talk on the phone while driving? Do you do anything in your life that may put your life/health at risk?
cause I think you should drive safer, not on the phone and with winter tires.

Haha this reminds me of a book they read to us in Elementry school. It was about a boy who tried his whole life to be perfect. One day he finally became perfect only to find out that all he could do was drink iced tea in a movie theatre. He then realized that no one was perfect and that to be perfect was boring....

So to answer your question: No, I will not be getting a flue shot.

How does it feel for most of you to live your life in constant fear?

Buy winter tires or you will die!
Get a flue shot or you will die!
Text message while driving and you will die!

It gets old really...

[edn88]

Snow tires - yes, seatbelt - yes, smoke - no (I do drink casually, but I am told that is actually good for you), snowboard - no (I play hockey - does that count), sky dive - hell no, use speaker phone if I talk on phone while driving. Getting up in the morning and going to work = risk. My original post was somewhat tongue in cheek and really can be distilled down into the question I asked at the end - which is if you refuse to reduce the risk associated with H1N1 do you deserve treatment. I do agree with Hoot on people who don't take care of themselves don't deserve access to public health care - and I understand the impracticality of implementing such a system. If I play hockey, don't wear a visor and get cut for 25 stitches, I should probably have to pay to get those stitches.

I like our health care system, not interested in moving to the states. I am not a doctor, but I do play one on TV and since I post on a message board, I thought that gave me the right to inflict my opinion unabated on everyone. Talking out of my ass - now that would be a trick. And since I am not an expert, I rely on medical and science experts to help me in these areas, and these experts (the same ones that brought you the polio vaccine) are suggesting that we get vaccinated. I also want to be a little cautious and don't want to stand in line for 8 hrs to get my vaccine, and I would love it if the whole thing just went away. If it turns out that after a weeks time, it looks good and the lineups are bearable, I am definitely going to get one for me and my family.

Finally - I appreciate your latest post more than the one that inferred I was an idiot, because you at least indicated what your problem was with my opinion. Although I don't agree with you, I don't think I would throw hot coffee on you if, ironically (did I use ironically correctly - I'm always confused) I found you in the hospital suffering from H1N1.

At any rate, I am going to bed, because I have spent too much effort on responding to a post that I should have merely stated - In my humble opinion, if you don't get the shot, I don't believe you should have access to public health care.

[GoFlamesGo89]

Originally Posted by flip

Also, since you are obviously a qualified doctor and an expert on the H1N1 virus, can you please explain to me exactly what my risk is? What exactly are the side effects, if any, of me getting or not getting the shot? What are the chances that H1N1 will become a city wide pandemic? Country wide? Worldwide?

Most of your questions are addressed here. As you know, there are no concrete answers to the extent of the spread, although the side effects can be pretty much predicted based on knowledge of other flu vaccines and the adjuvent formulation which is the same as that used for vaccines such as tetanus and Hep B.

And, should you decide not to get the vaccine, I just want to send out a big thanks for subsidizing my shot through your tax dollars. I do appreciate it. Free stuff from the government is a terrible thing to waste, especially if it means my risk of spending time on a ventilator is reduced by 80-90%.

[EDBTZ12]

Originally Posted by kevman

Haha this reminds me of a book they read to us in Elementry school. It was about a boy who tried his whole life to be perfect. One day he finally became perfect only to find out that all he could do was drink iced tea in a movie theatre. He then realized that no one was perfect and that to be perfect was boring....

So to answer your question: No, I will not be getting a flue shot.

How does it feel for most of you to live your life in constant fear?

Buy winter tires or you will die!
Get a flue shot or you will die!
Text message while driving and you will die!

It gets old really...

Dude, he isn't getting the flu shot. Re-read his post.

Flip, how do all your posts get flipped upside down?

So now you condone rape, hate cancer patients and want people with no snow tires to die?

[twotoner]

Originally Posted by kevman

How does it feel for most of you to live your life in constant fear?

Buy winter tires or you will die!
Get a flue shot or you will die!
Text message while driving and you will die!

It gets old really...

Its not about fear, its about doing your best with non-perfect information and acting on it. And finally not worrying anymore and getting on with life, because you did the best you could given the information you had.

So you are healthy and probably will survive the H1N1 if you come down with it. The chances of dying from it are very very slim. Odds are such that we shouldn't fear and especially not panic from it.

The question is, will your co-workers, their young kids or their new borns without much more than a sniff of an imune system, their pregnant wives and the hockey teams you or they coach be strong enough to overcome what you directly or indirectly pass on to them when you are an unknowing transmitter of the virus the first day or two you get it? Most will, fact is some of them won't.

Or will the fragile economy be strong enough to weather the slew of un-vaccinated sick days...

Its called the herding effect. If enough people are vaccinated, the damn thing goes away because it is too hard for it to jump from host to host. If enough people are not vacinated, it spreads and potentially evolves into something worth panicking about.

How is AB health care going to save you? The only thing they can offer is ventilation. At any normal time in this province, do you know how many free ventilators there are? Not many, probably less than a hundred.

Here's the stats for New York:
"Officials calculated that 18,000 additional New Yorkers would require ventilators in the peak week of a flu outbreak as deadly as the 1918 pandemic. Only a thousand machines would be available, the officials estimated. The state’s acute care hospitals in 2005 had about 6,000 ventilators, 85 percent of which were normally in use. A moderately severe pandemic would have resulted in a shortfall of 1,256 ventilators, health officials found."
http://www.propublica.org/article/fl...m-some-pat-923

Yeah, I'm fine, I don't need a flu shot, I'll just barge my way in to emerg if I need too and they'll take great care of me. Good luck with that.

What gets old is people without common sense. If enough people had it, there wouldn't be a need for this kind of annoying banter.

[Ace]

So I was at the doctors office and I ask if they have any H1N1 shots. They don't know what's going to happen, but mentioned that they have to plan very well because these Vaccines expire in 24 hours??

Now this is the first I've heard of this. So I asked if this is the same as the regular flu shot, oh no that one we can keep refrigerated.

Now I thought the reason this was able to be fast tracked is because it is the same as the regular flu shot, only with a different strain. Anybody know what's different?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by flip

What are the chances that H1N1 will become a city wide pandemic? Country wide? Worldwide?

I'm gonna go ahead and make a smart ass comment here.

You don't know what "pandemic" means.

[edn88]

google has a flu tracking tool that basically works off of the premise that if people are sick with the flu or have people in their family who are sick with the flu, they google flu.

http://www.google.org/flutrends/ca/

If the data model is accurate, and the October spike isn't related to media hysteria, then we are all in trouble (I do think that spike has to be somewhat fueled by the media).

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by twotoner

What gets old is people without common sense. If enough people had it, there wouldn't be a need for this kind of annoying banter.

So the head of a German medical association lacks common sense in suggesting to his members that it not be given? Why should I listen to you above him?

Good for you for getting it. But it's as simple as you have a different risk perception of the disease and the vaccine based on the limited information out there. What gets old is that based on an individual risk perception issue people feel the need to question other's intelligence.

If it was as simple as a common sense issue then the poll (which accurately reflects Canada as a whole) would be more skewed. It would also mean that Germany would have a higher than 19% willingness to be vaccined.

Meanwhile some medical associations are advising their members not to administer the new vaccine. President of the German Association of General and Family Medicine, Michael Kochen, has called on German general doctors not to give it to patients. “The risks outweigh the benefits,” he said.

Wolfram Hartmann, president of the Association of Paediatricians, accused the government of making false scientific statements. He said children under the age of three should not be given the shots.

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20091018-22649.html

Fact of the matter is there seems to be enough uncertainty, out there to warrant at least some concern.

AC or LChoy, if you're reading this, I'd be interested in:

(a) your father's thoughts re. the comments of the 2 German presidents of their subsequent medical associations.

(b) Why is it only now that an adjuvant has been approved for the first time ever for use in a flu vaccine? Why not before given that they boost and provide more broad spectrum protection? Surely that's a good thing for seasonal vaccines?

I'm just curious as to why given that they've been in other vaccines for so long why it's taken a pandemic before they get approval for the first time in flu vaccines?

Surely it would make sense to do this on an annual basis?

[Bagor]

Don't know what it's like in Calgary but it takes them till 2:30 pm here to start the vaccination clinics.

They're closing at 8:30 and turning people away about 5.

[JohnnyFlame]

I have already declared myself to be with the wait and see crowd. Today on the way into work they said on the radio that 12 people have died in AB from H1N1. I'd need to know what state of health they were in, ages etc. to affect my decision. Also there are always a number of deaths from the flu every year.

Once they start on the general population and with more information I'll make an informed decision.

[mykalberta]

I wont be lining up for over an hour to get one.

Once the line gets more manageable and not such a waste of my time I will go get one.

I love how people are b!tching about the lack of available clinics yet seem to forget the vaccine is available earlier than expected. And also how people are b!tching about how our health sector should be equipped to handle such things. Yes, thats what I want, more of my tax dollars wasted to provide for the 1 in 30 year chance of a possible pandemic.

While I hate unsteady eddy, I am sure the alberta government paid for AHS is doing its best in this situation, to b!tch and complain about is just silly IMO.

The level of paranoia and panic in this world is bordering on insanity.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I have already declared myself to be with the wait and see crowd. Today on the way into work they said on the radio that 12 people have died in AB from H1N1. I'd need to know what state of health they were in, ages etc. to affect my decision. Also there are always a number of deaths from the flu every year.

Once they start on the general population and with more information I'll make an informed decision.

I am in the same boat. I am sure as heck not worried enough right now to stand in line for 8 hours not getting paid.

Another interesting tid bit about the shot being provided today at the U of C, it isn't only for Pregnant women and sick people:

The University of Calgary will host Calgary’s fifth public H1N1 vaccination clinic beginning Wednesday morning. The decision to open the clinic comes at the request of Alberta Health Services.

The clinic, which will specifically serve high-risk Calgarians, will also be open to staff, faculty and students and their families.

The clinic will be open beginning at 8:30 a.m. Wednesday on the second floor of the Olympic Oval.

They are being asked to wait a day before they go in so the sick and preggers can go first.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

Actually I said something similiar to my brother. He is not going to get the shot. So I told him. If you get H1N1 please do not bitch and complain if you can't get to a doctor because the emergency rooms a packed with other people like him who did not get the H1N1 shot.

I told him he can't be against the government program for the H1N1 shot and then turn around later and bitch about the government not haveing enough resources to manage any out break that may occur.

He didn't have an answer for me. lol

I'll take my chances until the lineups go down to the point where I can walk in and out in about 15 minutes, which should be in about two weeks.

This isn't something I'm worried enough about to stand in line.

I am carrying around a pocket-sized, hand sanitizer that I use. In the end, that may end up being the extent of my prevention tactics, along with not sticking my finger up my nose on a regular basis (seriously).

I can see folks with school-age kids being particularly paranoid about their exposure to this. They're walking through a mine field every day.

The only thing I'm a little paranoid about is buying a sandwich at lunch somewhere and being exposed by someone involved in the preparation.

Cowperson

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Bagor

My opinion is based on scientific evidence and research also.

I'm finding the evidence and research to be incomplete and full of knowledge gaps. What about you?

Or maybe you could enlighten me and point me towards the findings of the complete clinical trials this thing has been subjected to .... thanks.

I'll repeat the question I asked you back in post #116.

It's still a work in progress and an information gathering process as we speak so can you please stop calling people foolish and ashamed for adopting what in their opinion is a perfectly logical reason for adopting a wait and see approach.

Really? Are you still pretending you don't know where our information is coming from? Although this is obviously a waste of my time since you have no apparent interest in scientific evidence, I'm going to go through this little exercise anyway in the off chance it will help you or your family. I hope you appreciate the time this is taking.

Health Canada Vaccine Myths (I just pulled one myth but you should really read the site as it pertains to H1N1, and the link to myths in particular.)

Myth 3: Because the H1N1 flu vaccine is new, it is untested and unsafe.

Fact 3: Careful research into the safety of any vaccine is done prior to its widespread use. The requirements for vaccines approved for sale in Canada are stringent. Every vaccine lot is safety-tested by the manufacturer and by the Biologics and Genetic Therapies Directorate at Health Canada. Health Canada will review all available test results, including international data, to ensure the vaccine is safe and effective before it is authorized for use in Canada. The dangers of vaccine-preventable diseases are much greater than the risk from a serious reaction to a vaccine.
The use of an adjuvanted vaccine is not new. The adjuvant used in the H1N1 flu vaccine although new in Canada, has been widely used safely in Europe in other vaccines. This adjuvant has already been evaluated by Health Canada, and no safety concerns have been found.

USA FDA (from a Q&A on H1N1 vaccines)

Are the Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent vaccines safe?

The Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent vaccines are manufactured and tested using the same processes used for the seasonal vaccine. Many millions of doses of seasonal vaccine have been distributed every year for many years, and seasonal vaccines have a well-established safety profile. As for seasonal vaccines, safety will also be monitored as part of the vaccination program.

World Health Organization (Again, I'm just posting a small portion of the reams of information they have available on the site.)

Will new pandemic influenza A (H1N1) vaccines be safe?

Licensed vaccines, including influenza vaccines, are held to a very high standard of safety. Likewise, all possible precautions will be taken to ensure safety of new pandemic vaccines and results from clinical trials, currently ongoing or soon to be initiated, will be taken into consideration by the regulatory authorities in their decision to license pandemic vaccines. In early June, WHO held a consultation of experts which reviewed the safety of adjuvants, or substances added to vaccines to make them more effective; no significant safety concerns were identified. Vaccine safety will be carefully monitored through post-marketing surveillance.
How can a repeat of the 1976 swine flu vaccine complications (Guillain-Barré syndrome) experienced in the United States of America be avoided?

Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) is an acute disorder of the nervous system. It sometimes develops following a variety of infections, including influenza. Studies suggest that seasonal influenza vaccines could sometimes be associated with an increased risk of Guillain-Barré syndrome on the order of one to two cases per million vaccinated persons. During the 1976 influenza vaccination campaign, about 10 persons per million vaccinated persons developed GBS which stopped the vaccination campaign and led to the withdrawal of the vaccine.
The reason why GBS developed in association with that specific vaccine has never been firmly established. The potential for the development of a similar risk with future vaccines can never be firmly excluded. However, the influenza A (H1N1) vaccine will be manufactured according to established standards and post marketing surveillance will be conducted to monitor potential development of any serious adverse events following administration of vaccine. Safety monitoring systems are an integral part of strategies for the implementation of the new pandemic influenza vaccines.

Okay, Bagor, so there you have it. So I have Health Canada, the World Health Organization and the FDA on my side. I could keep going on this if you like.

How about the Mayo Clinic?

Is the swine flu vaccine safe?

Yes. Its nonvirus components are the same as those used in the seasonal flu vaccine, which has been tested extensively and monitored for serious reactions for several years. The only difference is that in the swine flu vaccine, novel H1N1 virus replaces the influenza A viruses used in the regular vaccine.

I have it on pretty good authority the vaccine is safe and necessary to prevent the spread of H1N1. I'm really curious to hear who you think trumps those organizations. I mean, this is a slam dunk and it's certainly not a matter of opinion. It's right versus wrong, and you my friend are very wrong and it's putting many people at risk.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Where did you get the 1% from?

It's based on the number of cases in North America since the virus has been identified here. I'd be shocked if it is too much more than that by the end of the pandemic.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I have it on pretty good authority the vaccine is safe and necessary to prevent the spread of H1N1. I'm really curious to hear who you think trumps those organizations. I mean, this is a slam dunk and it's certainly not a matter of opinion. It's right versus wrong, and you my friend are very wrong and it's putting many people at risk.

Russian videos, man. In Russia, you infect virus!