Quad City Fan Support and Team Performance Discussion

[Locke]

In light of CP radio's conversation with Craig DeVrieze in which he mentioned that QC fans are 'fickle' and unhappy with the performance and overall quality of play of the Flames, I'd like to generate a little discussion.

There was some venom and vitriol getting thrown around when the rumours of moving the farm to Abbotsford got thrown around.

Obviously, there is a divergence in perspective here, we in Calgary are concerned about the guys we get when Sutter makes a phone call and how they're developing.

I want to know what the QC guys think. No BS, we're after real opinions here. I will provide my own perspective from the point of view of a Calgary fan.

Are you happy with the QC Flames, why or why not, what do you want to see improved?

[dobbles]

hey locke, thanks for making a thread. when i read the post in the radio forum, i definitely was interested in having a discussion.

let me first say, i totally understand where you are coming from. from a calgary perspective, the farm system has been good to you lately with guys like nystrom, boyd, pardy, and mcelhinney. i can see how it would be hard to understand how fans can be disgusted and unhappy with a team that seems to be pretty good at making nhl players.

i will try to give some reasoning as to why i am unhappy and why fans are unhappy.

when looking at players that have made the jump to the big club, we first look at forwards. both boyd and nystrom played a limited amount of games with the quad cities last year. boyd was around early in the year when we couldnt score for crap. nystrom left even quicker, but did have that rehab stint where he looked great. but for the most part we never saw these guys. i am sure omaha fans could tell how dominate they were in the ahl, but we never got to see that. last year we had guys like kolanos and stevenson that were pretty good offensive players. but unfortunately they were surrounded by tons of grinder types. tomi maki, derek couture, cam cunning, etc. aren't going to exactly get fans excited. additionally, we had an underacheiving verteran in germyn, a young raw player in chucko, and some decent but unspectacular players in guys like peters and vandergulik. all in all it was a set of forwards that couldn't score much and wasn't able to get us back into games if we fell behind. this year we have lundmark who has been outstanding; chucko has progressed a lot, but still struggles at times. we are one of 5 teams (the only in our division) to not break 100 goals scored yet. so once again, its hard to get the fan base excited when you can't score goals.

regarding defense, we have some good players. pardy has been a great addition up there. while i felt he was a good player last year, i dont think anyone saw his performance this year back in september. we dumped a couple of stinkers in my opinion in losing hambly and ramholt. neither were too awful, but both had the penchant for untimely turnovers. the kind of thing that sticks out in fans minds. this year wehave eriksson who has been surprisingly good for us. still makes a boneheaded decision from time to time on outlet passes and stuff, but great to have him back there. pelech has looked good both years and continues to improve. i would say this year most fans are happy with how our D plays. many of us hated on dan spang earlyon, but i think he was just forced into too many minutes do to injury. he actually has looked better in his limited action recently, but still has an abysmal +/-.

as far as goaltending, last year was great. both mcelhinney and keetley played outstanding. even lalande played well early on. not lights out or anything, but solid for being the 3rd guy. we had one of the lower goals against totals, so not many people complained last year. unfortunately, this year, keetley has stunk up the joint. he started on fire, but has just not played as well recently. the fact he continues to get so many games has been a frustration for many fans. irving has been improving as the season goes on, so that weights into that.

so since i am longwinded already, i am going to start a new post talking about other aspects and put an end to this one looking at players. i will summarize by saying this: the 2 good calgary forwards were not really part of QC hockey as they only played a handful of games here and the rest of the forwards have been underwhelming as grinder types. defensemen have been strong and dont cause many problems. goaltending was great last year but with mcelhinney gone, keetley has taken a step back and frustrated fans with his inconsistency.

[dobbles]

other things that have been frustrating:

the team plays poorer at home than on the road. this was hugely apparent last year. 15-18-7 at home, 23-14-3 on the road. its hard to watch a team thats bad at home. can't keep the fan base happy when losing. this year they have climbed to .500 at home and are a bit under .500 on the road. but, both years they started off awful at home. last year after winning their first home game, they lost 5 in a row. this year after winning the first, they lost 6 in a row. really kills that early season excitement when they start bombing all their games.

related to the bad home play is the PP issue. last year the team was 24th at home in PP but 14th on the road. whether it was bad luck or something else, it made watching the PP at home very painful. this year, they are ranked 21st at home and 20th on the road. once again, not too great. all too often they get 0 scoring chances and only 1 or 2 shots on a PP. though i am often critical of the undeducated fans that seem to shout shoot it any time a guy gets the puck on the point, the team seems to cycle in the corner way too much on the PP and need someone to just shoot it. (ironically, the flames won 2 OT games recently with PP goals. both were shots up high) so it can be frustrating as fans to see a team that can't score on the PP.

one thing that has nothing to do with the team is the attendance. we as fans are all upset that more people don't show up. it makes us paranoid that the team will leave, it makes the games less fun, and it causes those of us tha do show up to end up defending the team to everyone else. thats no ones fault but i think it has caused an inferiority complex with the team. i won't go into the multitude of problems and solutions with attendance. but suffice it to say, anyone that posts on this board wants more fans to come to games and has worked their butt off personally to try and do their part.

i want to go back to players in a sense with this next one. there seems to be a feeling among many fans that this team will always be a bad one because calgary only cares about development. personally i am not big into that, but there were some decisions this summer that i think hurt the teams chances. theres always the ahl vets that couldnt stay in the nhl, but are plenty good to get ahl contracts. unfortunately, this year we don't have any of those types. this summer our big veteran signings were pete vandermeer and jonathon trembley. both are extremely tough players, but what we need is the type of player that can score goals. last year we had kolanos come in and had stevenson, but this year, aside from lundmark, we dont seem to really have anyone that generates their own chances. i think its just bad luck. i personally think qc management and calgary should work together to have a good veteran forward each year. they can mentor the young guys and make the team better. lundmark has been that guy in a way, but i think having a guy on a 1 way ahl contract would make fans more confident that we are trying to put a winning team out there.

i think that will do it for this post. i will think of more later!

[FlamesAddiction]

To be honest, I don't know if I could follow an AHL team. With the constant turnover, it would be hard to get attached to players and personalities... and that imo, is what makes North American professional sports interesting and helps build followings. It would kind of suck knowing that having a player performing well essentially writes his ticket off the club sometime in the future.

Unless I was already a fan of the parent club, I can see how following an AHL team would be tedious. For this reason, I think having the farm team in Western Canada (Abbotsford, Saskatoon, etc), would be preferrable. Then again, university sports is extremely popular in the U.S., and the turnover on those teams is even more extensive.

I really hope the Flames give QC a longer run though. I feel that we pulled out of Omaha too quickly and don't want to see the same thing happen in QC.

[dobbles]

you make a good point about turnover. but heck even in the nhl, theres a few new players every year whether its free agents or guys up from the minors.

one difference that i think you point out is often fans follow the team not the players. with colleges this is really apparent. so often alumni/fans just love the school/team so they follow them no matter how good or bad the team is and regardless of who the players are. i think in the modern era of free agency that pretty much has to be the way it is. though i do know quite a few packers fans that became jets fans this year because of brett favre. so it does go both ways. personally, i give my allegiance to the local team. i could care less who the affiliate is or who is on the roster.

[Locke]

You make some good points, but the things I looked at in your posts were these:

Originally Posted by dobbles

the team plays poorer at home than on the road. this was hugely apparent last year. 15-18-7 at home, 23-14-3 on the road. its hard to watch a team thats bad at home

Originally Posted by dobbles

one thing that has nothing to do with the team is the attendance. we as fans are all upset that more people don't show up. it makes us paranoid that the team will leave, it makes the games less fun, and it causes those of us tha do show up to end up defending the team to everyone else.

That to me smacks of a local issue between the fans and the players. Not the organization or the coaches or anyone else, the players.

Reading the posts in here and the articles from the QC times there seems to be a prevailing atmosphere of tension surrounding the team and its fans. Its something that has to be addressed, and while I'm the last person who should be offering advice, it just sounds to me like the business aspect of the game has overshadowed the fun.

It doesnt sound like anybody is having any fun.

This might be a good time to do something team oriented in the community to just let the pressure off a little and have some fun. I remember an article where Chucko and someone else fired a T-Shirt cannon into traffic with a local radio station. I know that elicited some vitriol around here, but I thought it was goddamn hilarious.

The general nature of an NHL farm team is inherently frustrating to both the coaching staff and the fans, and as fans of the NHL team itself, we often dont appreciate that side, but I was concerned a little bit at some of the comments directed toward Sutter in earlier threads.

Primarily because you dont want to get the man mad. He doesnt come with levels of angry, he is either passive or hes so angry his foot is so far up your ass its kicked your teeth out.

And secondly because hes a rather shrewd fellow. He invariably has a plan and he sticks to it, but he also wont tell you what it is, especially the media. There are some recorded instances of him outright lying to the media, he has little to no respect for the media, so your obvious sources of info wont help you. Given time though, it eventually unfolds.

[Bobblehead]

Re: continual turnover.....

I don't think that is an issue because college sports is huge and that is nothing but regular turnover.


I think the issue is between development vs competitiveness.

Not that the QC Flames aren't trying to win, but when you give development a higher priority you see things like asking a player to play through a tough stretch, playing goalies to get them experience even if the other tender is hot, and so on.

And I don't think it simply a hockey thing. We saw a similar scenario with AAA baseball in Calgary. A parent franchise had a strong team and put the emphasis on winning, and filled the park. As soon as the team wasn't as good and the emphasis was on development, we saw pitchers being left to try and work their way out of trouble(when normally they would have been pulled), and so on.

The teams that appear to do well seem to have a culture developed around their team. It seems they have a big enough fan base to hang on during the ebb and flow of development teams.

Calgary is probably a tough team to have as a parent right now. For a number of years, the cupboard was bare, the parent team wasn't very good, and any talent that was drafted went to the parent team in a hurry (probably too quickly).

But Calgary seems to be much deeper right now, and I can see the farm talent staying on the farm a little longer. And that should make them more competitive.

[PIMking]

First of all do you have a clip of your interview with Dedbag? I would love to listen to it.

Second of all I never had a favorite NHL team I liked Calgary but I also Hated the Coilers Canucks Maple leafs and Habs. I just cant stand those teams and throw in detroit.

So when the news that Calgary was coming to the QC I was stoked. I grew up watching the Florida Everblades in the ECHL and Couldnt stand the UHL and the league that we were in. I understand the turnover.

The thing that gets me the most is the local owners have shown everyone in the hockey world how not to market a major minor hockey team. They have done a piss poor job of it. Like Dobbles said they expect us to come sit watch hockey and go home and be happy. Dobbles and I sit next to eachother.

As you folks have seen I dont beat around the bush at all I leave my emotions on my sleeve and tell it how I see it.

As for the players I feel that some of them do not want to be here. Got to feel bad for guys that were part of the Omaha move and possible move this year. And with that I was pissed as you guys saw with my posts. I dont want this team to leave even though Im moving out of the area this summer.

I got to meet some of the guys on the team and they are all great guys. Peters is the coolest of them all. I went to over 50 Flames games last year and this year I have been to 2 away games and all home games (STH).

I think alot of the people use the excuses that they took the mallards away from us. Even though they bailed out on the mallards 3 years before the flames even showed up. I really would wish that Calgary would come down and help these guys market the team.

Look at the team last night they have a TON of momentum and go to clevland and get shut out 3-0 you have a goalie in keetly that hasnt been no were near the goalie he was last year. Everyone that watches Irving play and the team plays tons better in front of him because he doesnt kick every rebound into a opposing player for a goal.

I think some of these guys need to get out and mingle with the fans if they want to play in front of more fans. If they are scratched they all go and hide in the areanas upper bowl and dont talk with fans that often.

If they leave they leave I will still follow them I have invested too much time and money in these guys to just give up on them. I dont think they are leaving but with the local press jumping all over the abbotsford thing and knowing what calgary did to Omaha fans are not welcoming these guys with open arms.

one more thing I wish they could have a preseason game vs the old mallards just to show the fans that the flames are head and shoulders better than them. We still have fans that think the Flames are not as good as them.

[Locke]

There is some interesting insight there PIMKing, remember though, there is always going to be a degree of tension, at the same time as they are teammates working together towards a common goal, they are also competing against one another for a job.

As for them not wanting to be there, thats good, from my perspective.

I dont want a bunch of prospects happy as hell to be playing for the farm team, I want a stable of prospects that burn like hell wanting to be here in Calgary. They should want to leave the QC in the dust and never look back so long as its for a job here.

I understand that doesnt sit well with local fans, but thats the lot in life for a farm team. There will be farm 'permanents' though, look no farther than Pete Vandermeer and, quite likely, Lundmark.

And as you mentioned, there seems to be a problem with them playing at home, and thats not good. You always want your home rink to be a fortress. Maybe its too easy for other teams to play in for reasons unknown, maybe its a mental thing, but it should never, ever, be a motivational problem. If it is, then you have to wonder why these guys dont like playing in front of their home fans.

When they're in the NHL and they get traded away to some scum-dump like Vancouver or Edmonton then you can use the excuse that 'they're professionals, getting booed in their own building is part and parcel of the job.'

But until then, they're mostly still kids who want to play in front a great crowd.

I think it would be interesting to schedule an AHL game against one of the QC's big rivals here at the dome, maybe even during pre-season, just hold one game here at the Dome, maybe that would get them fired up.

[dobbles]

one thing regarding crowds is that most of the places we play aren't much better in attendance. iowa rockford and peoria are our main rivals and they all average under 3,700 fans a game. chicago and houston are in the top 10 from our division, so its not all like that, but its not like our attendance problems are unique. we just seem to have it a bit more severely.

i think the thing regarding player complacency is that you don't want it too extreme in either direction. obviously an organization doesnt want players that are just happy to make it to the ahl and have no aspirations of getting better. but you also dont want a bunch of snobs that think they are better than the team they are playing for. i understand that no hockey player grows up with dreams of playing in moline, but the players still need to remember the reason they get paid to play hockey is because the fans are willing to pay good money to watch in person and on tv.

[koop]

Kind of OT, but did Kolanos have over the top goal celebrations in QC like he does in Minny? I was just watching the game, and Kolanos was even doing fist pumps for someone else's goal.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by koop

Kind of OT, but did Kolanos have over the top goal celebrations in QC like he does in Minny? I was just watching the game, and Kolanos was even doing fist pumps for someone else's goal.

Yeah.

[dobbles]

for what its worth, we drove to des moines for a road game tonight. they announced a crowd of 3,100. no way there was more than 2,000 people there... we need to start padding our numbers, and we might not look so bad!

[QuadCityImages]

I believe all the season ticket holders are counted for the "paid attendance" aren't they?

The attendance thing is interesting to me. I guess the first issue that has to be mentioned is that we're one of the smallest metro areas in the AHL. It stands to reason we're going to have lower attendance than San Antonio or Milwaukee. Listing the league attendance by "per capita attendance" relative to local population would change the rankings quite a bit. That said, there's Peoria averaging almost a full thousand a game higher than us, with a slightly smaller metro area.

The economy here is doing relatively well compared to the rest of the US, and our housing prices are even stable, so that's not an obvious reason. People here are doing ok, but they may be worried about spending $100 on taking the family to a hockey game. 4-5 seats, 2 beers, 2 pops, food... Our tickets are cheap, but I do think that concession prices discourage people.

I would say that there are 3000-5000 hardcore hockey fans in the QC, at least. Obviously they can't all attend every game, or buy season tickets. Some of this number was possibly offended by the switch from the Mallards to the Flames. Personally, I liked the name change, and liked the move up to AAA level. However, like people were saying earlier, now we have higher turnover. With the Mallards people would buy name jerseys because the same guys would be here year after year. Rather than a prep team for someone else, it felt like OUR team. I don't believe that inherently matters, because our baseball team does ok, and NOBODY gets attached to single A baseball players. But back to hockey, those hardcore fans are not going to fill the place. We need people like me who greatly enjoy going to 5-8 hockey games in a year, but are essentially casual fans.

So are we casual fans just fairweather fans that can't get behind a team that doesn't win? I don't think so. I think its a problem of momentum. People don't go to the games because they're empty. Its not exciting to sit in an arena that holds 10,000 when there are 3,000 people spread throughout it. Its a vicious cycle. The fewer people attend, the less exciting it gets, and the fewer come back. I think they have to get people in the seats, even if it means giving away tickets. Our baseball team lowered prices and started filling the stands regularly, and suddenly they were filling the stands even on nights where there weren't big sponsorship deals. People get excited when there's a roar of the crowd when something big happens, and people sitting closer than 5 seats away from them.

I have no idea how their financial side of it goes, so maybe this is simply impossible, but I think they have to start getting 5,000 plus fans in the place for people to leave feeling like the attended an exciting event. And of course starting the season out higher than last place helps too...

[QCHockeyFan]

Okay Locke, you got me. I've been reading CP for over a year, and never felt I had anything to substantive to add. You want opinions, so I'll give you mine.

I'm a QC season ticket holder this year, and I had half a season last year. It was pretty dificult at times to watch the QC Flames stink it up last year, and it looked like they were going to go the same route again this year. They actually did through most of December. Since Christmas, I've had my faith renewed. They're actually showing up for most periods!

I think the "venom and vitriol" really started with the D. Sutter comment about attendance. I know that's when I felt it. It was kinda like we were being kicked when we were down. I know I felt like I was showing up more ready to play than the team was at that time.

The real problem in the QC is that there are too many people that don't pay attention to hockey. Sure, we used to fill the arena for the Mallards, but that was years ago and most of those "fans" have found other things to do on Friday and Saturday nights. Can they be attracted to hockey again? I think a lot of them could. They just need to be reminded of how much fun they can have at a hockey game.

I've made a point of taking more and different people to games this year. They always say they had fun, but I'll probably have to invite them again before they'll attend another game. It's just not the "in thing" right now.

What would I change? Market the damned team. We had kids from an elementary school sing the national anthem and pee wee hockey play during an intermission one night. They got over 4,000 people there because of the the kids. That was one night and they haven't done it again. Seems logical to me that I'd try to find more elementary schools with kids that would like to sing in front of a crowd. I bet they're out there!

Without going into specific players, I wouldn't change a thing with the current team. They're playing like the game is fun right now.

Sorry I was so long winded. I saved it up for a year and a half. For what it's worth, this average hockey fan has recently started writing game recaps, taking pictures, and giving a few of my own opinions of the team's performance on my personal site. There's nothing for sale there. You can check it out at forret.org/todd/.

[Canada 02]

I think the "venom and vitriol" really started with the D. Sutter comment about attendance

what exactly did he say? All we heard outside of QC is that he'd like attendance to be better; was there more in QC papers and media?

[pioneer98]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

what exactly did he say? All we heard outside of QC is that he'd like attendance to be better; was there more in QC papers and media?

He said a couple things. First, when the team's record was something like 2-9-1-0, he said the team was playing "pretty much like he expected". Then, he criticized QC fans for not coming out or supporting the team more.

I don't know why people would want to come out and see a team playing so badly. In fact, there were two home games in particular right before he spoke up that were just terrible (a Friday and the following Wednesday, I believe). The team barely put up a fight. I think those two games by themselves cost us a few dozen fans.

Basically, Sutter's comments pissed off the diehards, and turned off the casual fans. This is part 1 of why things are bad right now.

[pioneer98]

Part 2 of why things are bad is because, well, basically hardly anything has gone right, on top of the Abbottsford rumors and Sutter's comments.

The front office evidently messed up and lost some big corporate clients. Three people from the already thin front office were let go about a month into the season. That sure didn't help, although the rumor is they recently got some back.

The front office had/has some good promotions planned, and in some ways are doing a better job than last year, but in other ways, not so much. The single-A River Bandits baseball team across the river is pretty much putting them to shame in many respects.

The decision to raise ticket prices right before the economy totally tanked was not a bright move, but hindsight is 20/20. I don't think our ticket prices are high, but still, its all in perception - i.e. raising prices right when people are cutting back on stuff like this.

The team is still in 7th place, even despite playing a lot better lately.

If they ever go on a nice winning streak and contend for the playoffs, I think things could easily change dramatically. I saw it with the Mallards in 2005-06, another dismal year for attendance. The team went on a tear at the end, and people finally started talking about them again. They had a critical game at the end that would basically make or break their playoff chances, and 6,000 people showed up, basically with no promotions to speak of (that I remember at least!).

I don't know, I think the Flames' AHL model is a tough sell. It will always be a developmental team. It doesn't mean they'll never win, it just means that winning seasons (like the 1st place one Omaha had their last season) will be fewer and farther between than it might be for some of the other teams.

[pioneer98]

Originally Posted by QuadCityImages

I believe all the season ticket holders are counted for the "paid attendance" aren't they?

Yes, but many of us who have been to Peoria and Des Moines suspect they are doing something to pump up their numbers a bit. Maybe they are giving sponsors a pile of seats or something?

I was at a game in Peoria on Halloween night, and the announced attendance was 2,500. I have pictures, and there is no way there was more than 1,000 people there, maybe more like 700 or 800. The game I attended in Des Moines said there was 3,500 people there, and there was only maybe 2,000 to 2,500 there.

The Mallards used to have this phenomenon going on, too, but since the Flames came to town, their attendance figures have been pretty darn close to the number of people actually at the game. There have been many instances where I would have guessed higher than they announced.

[Canada 02]

Originally Posted by pioneer98

He said a couple things. First, when the team's record was something like 2-9-1-0, he said the team was playing "pretty much like he expected". Then, he criticized QC fans for not coming out or supporting the team more.

I don't know why people would want to come out and see a team playing so badly. In fact, there were two home games in particular right before he spoke up that were just terrible (a Friday and the following Wednesday, I believe). The team barely put up a fight. I think those two games by themselves cost us a few dozen fans.

Basically, Sutter's comments pissed off the diehards, and turned off the casual fans. This is part 1 of why things are bad right now.

I think this is the article and quote in question:

http://qctimes.com/articles/2008/11/...c662813588.txt

“I’m not happy or disappointed,’’ Sutter said, reiterating on his first visit to the Quad-Cities this year the development-first philosophy he consistently staked during last year’s non-playoff Q-C debut. “We’re a young team again and we’re about developing players. As long as these guys continue to develop, some will play in the NHL, maybe this year, maybe next year.

“I guess if there’s any emotion it’s that they don’t play in front of more people,’’ he volunteered. “That’s part of their development, too.’’

Clearly he's dissapointed with the attendance, but I don't see how those words could be taken as criticizing the fans. Saying that it is part of player development suggests to me that he is putting the onus on the players to be more fan friendly and marketable; get out in the community and be a presence for the team