Another Question for the Landlords/Lawyers here.

[Boblobla]

Alright. Before I start, hindsight is 20/20...

I live in a house in the NW that my parents own. My Fiancée and I live upstairs and my parents rent out the basement suite.

A friend, or should I say former friend, of mine had been dating this girl for 2 years. She lived in Ontario and he is here in Calgary. She has an 8 yr old kid. He came to me and asked if my parents would rent the basement to him because he was going to move them out here to live with him. I thought I asked him all the right questions and the seemed to have a really solid relationship.

Long story short, she is crazy and he is a dick. He moved out at the beginning of June and said he would pay for rent in July and then she was on her own. Oh, I should mention that at this point she did not have a job and she had been here since January...

Now here is the Hindsight part. My old man is a procrastinator and I told him he should throw a lease together but he never got around to it. He wasn't too concerned because they knew my friend and he hasn't had any trouble with acquaintances living in the basement yet.

I talked about the situation with my parents and they decided that they were going to give her 6 weeks notice to GTFO, so that would have been the end of July. The gave it to her in writing and it was signed and dated. Well, it is August first and she still isn't completely packed. She claims she is going to be out on Saturday but she doesn't have a drivers license so I am a little concerned about how that will work.

I went down to talk to her last night and the pity party began. I wont go into details but she did mention that a cop friend of hers did some research and he told her that she is technically a 'sub-tenant'. She said that her friend said this means my parents had to give her 3 months notice, not 6 weeks. I can't find any information about this but through searching on this site I was sent to the link below.

http://www.qp.gov.ab.ca/documents/Acts/R17P1.cfm

Here I found this:

Notice to vacate
36(1) A landlord may require a person who is not a tenant but who is living in residential premises occupied by a tenant to vacate the premises by serving the person with a notice to vacate.
(2) The notice to vacate under subsection (1) must give the person living in the premises at least 14 days to vacate the premises from the day that the notice is served.
(3) A notice to vacate must
(a) be in writing,
(b) be signed by the landlord or the landlord’s agent, and
(c) set out the time and date by which the person must vacate.

Does this apply to my parents situation? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[algernon]

When my tenants moved out a few weeks ago, they told me the U-haul was under a hundred bones to rent...It might be easiest to rent the damn thing, waste a day, and help her GTFO yourself...

Just my 2¢ regarding the needy. The faster you get 'em outta yer hair, the faster you can forget about them.

EDIT: I'm not a cold hearted prick, I just have had way too many dealings with emotionally draining people, and will always take swift action to rectify any situations from now on.

[Russic]

I wonder if you can just give her another 6 weeks notice bringing the grand total to 3 months. Might be annoying but I do think she has rights in this situation and it sounds like she's going to use them as best she can. It's a big hassle, but without a lease your hands are a little tied. I'm not a landlord, so perhaps somebody with more experience can give better advice.

Algernon is correct, a uhaul is about 45-60 bucks a day. His alternative might work as well. He's also right about not letting emotionally draining people suck the life out of you. Not worth it.

[Tron_fdc]

Doesn't matter if there isn't a written lease......a verbal lease is the same thing.

If a tenant doesn't pay their rent, you can hire a bailiff to enter the premises and seize enough of their belongings to cover the cost, as well as the bailiff fee. This includes vehicles. The other option is to give them 15 days written notice to cancel the lease, at the end of which you can evict them.

Long story short, if a tenant doesn't pay rent you can REALLY screw them over. I've had to do it once, so if you need any info let me know and I'll dig up a number you can call to get them out.

[Boblobla]

Well, she can't afford the rent or the bills. She also can't afford a lawyer so if push comes to shove, she is going to come home from work one day with her stuff on the frint lawn and the locks changed.

[Boblobla]

And the Verbal lease was NOT with her, it was with my buddy. Or at least the person I thought was a buddy.

[Tron_fdc]

http://tenant.landlordandtenant.org/...acts/form.aspx

http://tenant.landlordandtenant.org/...on.aspx?id=936

Lots of good stuff in there.

[Tron_fdc]

You have 2 options here....hire a bailiff to seize her stuff until rent is paid, or give here the 14 day lease cancellation notice. After my experience, I would suggest the bailiff. not only does it show you don't ###### around when it comes to late rent payments, but they also have incentive to pay you to get back their possessions. When I did it I used the 14 day notice lease cancellation, the tenants trashed the house, wrote me another bad cheque, and then moved out before I could nab any of their stuff. I've been screwed over twice now for around 4 grand, so I have zero sympathy for people who can't pay rent.

My advice would be to give it straight to the bailiff.

[Boblobla]

What classifies a subtenant? She was not paying my buddy nor did she have any sort of agreement with him.

[photon]

Because there's no written agreement things are a bit more fuzzy.

Basically I think it boils down to this: how would the courts view the situation?

Typically when we rent to multiple adults, each adult is on the rental agreement, which means each adult is 100% responsible for the lease. We don't allow sub-leases to friends, if a friend moves in, they go through the application process, a new lease is signed with both names on the lease, etc.

So we have a situation like what I said where both people are on the lease and 100% responsible, they are both treated as tenants. Or we can have a situation like you have were lets say there was a signed agreement with the dude and then the law you posted would clearly apply; she's not a tenant and has to evict.

Now comes the fuzzy part.

There's no written agreement, there's only a verbal agreement. So the question becomes was the verbal agreement extended to include the girl as a tenant as well? Rather would a court decide that? If so then the law you posted doesn't apply.

So if I understand it correctly, they gave her the 6 week notice shortly after he left? How soon after? If it was pretty quickly (a few days) then that supports the side of treating her like a non tenant, so that supports there being no verbal contract with her as a tenant. If it was too long then a court might decide that she was treated like a tenant and in the absence of a clear agreement actions speak, and if they ever spoke and agreed that she was the new tenant, then she's a tenant.

I'm just trying to separate the issues out. Because what happens if she doesn't voluntarily leave depends on if she's a tenant or not, and since it's a verbal agreement you're kind of trying to guess which way a court will decide. I personally assume a court will side with the tenant (or girl even though she's not a tenant), because they are heavily slanted that way

So the rent for July has been paid by him correct? She's never paid any money for rent directly?

If so and the notice was given to the girl right away, I think you can treat her as a non-tenant. In that case you can't get a bailiff into her stuff because she isn't a tenant; I wouldn't feel comfortable with sending a bailiff on her without a written agreement.

Depending on what was said to the guy you might not even be able to. When he left what was the discussion like? Or did he just leave without talking to your parents? If there was any verbal discussion along the lines of implying to agreeing to letting him move out then that may be enough to be verbal agreement to end the tenancy.

If there was no discussion along those lines, he's still the tenant, and as of today he's late on his rent.

So you can do a few different things. If the goal is to get her out, I'd probably post a 14 day eviction notice and make sure he knows about it, the security deposit is the incentive for him to do what he can to make sure she gets out in that time. Of course the portion of the security deposit can go towards unpaid rent for August until it's re-rented.

The worst case is if he doesn't respond to anything, and she stays. At that point you'd have to go to court to be allowed to remove her; changing the locks and putting her stuff outside isn't an option, not without a court order anyway. Regardless of how other people act I always act within the law.

That's my take with the way I understand it anyway, its a tough situation because there's no written agreements anyway. Maybe your parents will learn a lesson...

EDIT: The other option would be to send a bailiff after him for the missing rent, though doing so for one month's rent being one day late (assuming July was paid) probably wouldn't fly. So the eviction notice thing is still probably the way I'd go.

[Boblobla]

The notice was given to her a few days after he left. He just up and left the property. He came upstairs and said he was leaving.

She has never paid rent for the property.

[photon]

Yeah I think you can safely treat her as a non-tenant then. Which means that 14 day law thing you posted applies, so she's had well over enough time. EDIT: Though as I said physically removing her stuff I don't think is an option without a court order.

Did he pay July's rent? Do they have a security deposit for him?

[Boblobla]

OH, and I am pretty sure my parents have learned their lesson. I just want the best way to get her out as soon as I can because I have had some interest from people who would like to move in for September.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by photon

Yeah I think you can safely treat her as a non-tenant then. Which means that 14 day law thing you posted applies, so she's had well over enough time.

Did he pay July's rent? Do they have a security deposit for him?

Yes, but that is going towards paying utilities, cleaning up the basement and fixing screw holes that were left in the walls.

oh, and yes he paid for July.

[photon]

There is a law company called Foster and Associates (they used to be called landlord 911), and they do give landlord law advice over the phone if it's not too long, their # is 259-0029

[Locke]

I have nothing constructive to offer, but I thought this was hilarious. It has some serious sig potential.

Originally Posted by Boblobla

Long story short, she is crazy and he is a dick.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Locke

I have nothing constructive to offer, but I thought this was hilarious. It has some serious sig potential.

Thanks, one day when I am feeling more up to it I will post why I feel that this chick should be nominated for the worst mother ever and quite possible the laziest person I have ever met.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

Yes, but that is going towards paying utilities, cleaning up the basement and fixing screw holes that were left in the walls.

oh, and yes he paid for July.

He did verbally say he was leaving in June, and he did pay for July, so that would count as notice I think, and that was two months ago so I think the tenancy with him could be counted as ended as of today.

So I'd point that law out to her and say she's had well over 14 days, she should be out.

If she doesn't leave, I personally wouldn't go down the "change the locks, stuff on the lawn" route without a court order, or at the very least check with that Foster & Assc to get their take on it.

The goal is to get her out, maybe offer to help move her stuff out or something? You don't have any obligations, but sometimes just biting the bullet and going with it to get the goal accomplished is necessary.

[Tron_fdc]

Yeah, I've started taking the "boot them out, seize their stuff and let the chips fall where they may" approach to things, but that's because I've been screwed over so many times that I get sick of letting things slide. I may be a little callous now, but it's a product of my environment.....I've learned that with renters being a nice guy gets you nowhere.

What you need to know is your rights as a landlord, and how you can apply them. As Photon has pointed out the issue is a little clouded, but even coming back to her and pointing out your rights and what you could do may be enough to scare her into either leaving, or paying rent. In the end it's up to the courts to decide, but 99% of the time someone with half a brain will figure out if it's worth their time and the possible black marks on their credit rating to fight or ignore what you're prepared to do. Both times in my case when I went back to the tenants letting them know I had talked with a lawyer, talked with a bailiff, and was ready to go to court to recover my damages it was enough to get MOST of my money. Or at least enough to sort of cover my time and expenses.

[photon]

Mind you as soon as she pays rent, then you can't treat her as a non-tenant anymore.

I agree with taking the hard line, I just think in this case since she isn't a tenant you can't really send a bailiff after her since there's no agreement she's in default of.. she's basically a squatter at this point.

Actually yeah, the dude verbally "gave notice" in June, and paid July, and if all his stuff is gone then he's gone. His tenancy has legally ended in a satisfactory manner, he gave sufficient notice and isn't in arrears.

She's got no legal right at all to be there, there's no tenancy agreement, verbal or not, she's basically trespassing.

Tell her that and tell her you're going to call the police if she doesn't leave.

I'd check with Foster & Assc. or an actual lawyer before actually calling the police though.