Troops Fire Complaints at Rumsfeld

[FlamesAddiction]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...usa_rumsfeld_dc

Hundreds of soldiers applauded a comrade who complained to Rumsfeld that U.S. troops were being forced to dig up scrap metal to protect their vehicles in Iraq because of a shortage of armored transport.


"Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to armor our vehicles ... (scrap) that has already been shot up, dropped, busted, picking the best out of this scrap to put on our vehicles to take into combat?, the soldier said.

Is that a legitimate complaint?

[FlamesAddiction]

My favourite part:

Another soldier asked Rumsfeld what the Pentagon was doing "to address shortages and antiquated equipment that National Guard soldiers ... are going to roll into Iraq with?" The soldier was referring to allegations that regular army units have been given better equipment than reservists.


"Now settle down, settle down. Hell, I'm an old man, and it's early in the morning. I'm just gathering my thoughts here," the 72-year-old Rumsfeld told the troops.


"No way I can prove it, but I'm told that the army is breaking its neck to see that there is not a differentiation" in the quality of equipment, he added.

You can also watch a video clip.

http://news.yahoo.com/p/v?u=/ap_av/2004120...=452&f=53746348

Maybe we can sell them our subs.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Dec 8 2004, 07:28 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...usa_rumsfeld_dc

Is that a legitimate complaint?

Definitely legit.

Just points to the obvious that the USA was unprepared for the violence of the insurgency that appears to have been pre-planned.

Then again, Canadian soldiers were in near panic in Kabul riding around in their little jeeps before they were recently replaced.

Soldiers have been complaining of their lot in life for centuries though. Canadian soldiers were sent into WWI and WWII with shoes that fell apart at the merest hint of water and guns that were basically useless. Complaining is part of a soldier's lot.

Rumsfeld had it coming and good on that soldier for stepping up.

Cowperson

[Daradon]

Wishing the title of this thread didn't have the word 'complaints' in it... :P

[ricosuave]

good thing he wasnt hearing about the cdn army/navy

[Looger]

don't forget our rusty - i mean our trusty air force

[Lanny_MacDonald]

I call BS on that story. More crap from Drudge. This issue has been big in the Phoenix area and one of the radio stations down here has been putting together "care packages" for the troops in Iraq. It has been mostly toiletries and items the troops can't get enough of (towels, socks, gaunch, etc.) but every now and then a strange item comes up. Odd things to come up in the past has been combat boots and GPS units. Monday's item was body armor. The troops in Iraq have not been outfitted properly and the people know it.

That this question was asked of Rumsfeld was not shocking. That anyone would have the balls to actually set up a smoke screen to change the focus of the issue (Karl Rove's hand is all over this one) is dispicable. It is turning into a shell game yet again. Step right up and find the issue! Is it an "ill-equiped military to deal with the dangers in Iraq", or is it the "left wing media planting questions with the impressionable troops"? Drudge has made it obvious which way the neo-cons are looking at it.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Dec 9 2004, 12:16 PM
It is turning into a shell game yet again.

That is exactly it.

If this becomes the story then the public is a bunch of dummies.

Tomorrow we'll see a report that this Liberal Monster from Chattanooga coached the other thousand soldiers in the building to cheer when the question was asked.

[Cowperson]

I think if a reporter asked a soldier to ask a question he was going to ask anyway then "so what."

Even if the reporter asked the soldier to stand up as ask Rumsfeld "Are you gay sir?" I would still say: "So what?"

I agree. The Drudge Revelation is a zero. Its interesting for about five seconds but not particularly relevant. Even if its true.

The question was obviously very popular and commonly felt, which only adds to the "so what?" quotient.

Cowperson

[Lurch]

Well I guess a reporter actually asked those soldiers to ask those questions. Stupid fool that I hopes gets fired. Idiot.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flashcp.htm

Maybe I'm simple, but I don't get the big deal. A reporter is not allowed to ask questions, so he makes sure 'his guys' get access to Rummy to ask what he's not allowed to ask. Nowhere does anything in Drudge 'scoop' say the question and implication is untrue. Further, by the crowd reaction, it sure seems that everyone else was wondering the same thing but were maybe afraid to ask. What possible justification can you use to say the reporter should be fired?

[Cowperson]

An update: Newspaper Regrets Putting Soldier Up To Ask Reporters Question.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/20...-reporter_x.htm

An interesting debate:

"I have some concerns when it looks as if a reporter is responsible for something that happened," said Aly Colón, who teaches about ethics at the Poynter Institute, a school for journalists. "It creates a credibility gap where the reader may not be sure if ... that's what the soldiers really felt."

But in Friday's editorial, Griscom said Pitts "used the tools available to him as a journalist to report on a story that has been and remains important to members of the 278th and those back at home."

"You absolutely have to spell that out," said Rem Rieder, editor of the American Journalism Review. "Not doing so gives a really misleading picture of how this took place."


I still am not seeing the big deal here. Personally.

Cowperson

[RougeUnderoos]

CNN, USAToday and the New York Post have all abandoned the actual story (flimsy trucks) for the much more important "the reporter wrote the question" story.

The Post's headline says Rumsfeld was "ambushed" and it contains this incredible Rummy quote that makes Chretién look like a striaght shooter;

"I don't know what the facts, are but somebody's certainly going to sit down with him and find out what he knows that they may not know, and make sure he knows what they know that he may not know, and that's a good thing."

I honestly don't get it. Can this pointless brouhaha be blamed on the media's fascination with itself or have Americans become this gullible? I mean come on people, snap out of it.

What is more important? An obscure journalism ethics question or an ill-equipped military currently fighting an effing war? People are dying for crying out loud! American soldiers are dying because of this! Wake up!

[Displaced Flames fan]

Well, I'm not sure what how a newspaper chooses to report a story has to do with Americans being gullable....but....

Here's what I think about the situation.

Maybe the reporter should have mentioned that he planted the question in the article he wroter for HIS newspaper.

But, to think that a US soldier would ask the Secretary of Defense a question of that nature without believing in the question himself is D U M B. I wonder, was the applause planted too? That makes the planting of the question irrelevant. The only ethical responsibility the reporter had was to his readership in Chattanooga.

Ridiculous.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Dec 10 2004, 02:06 PM
Well, I'm not sure what how a newspaper chooses to report a story has to do with Americans being gullable....but....

It's not a newspaper, it's the mainstream media. And I use the term "gullible" because the mock outrage of the Drudge Report has turned attention away from the real story (ill-equipped soldiers in a war that Rumsfeld heartily cheered on) and towards a piddling, inconsequential journalism ethics question at a Tennessee newspaper. Who buys this blatantly obvious flim-flam? Gullible people led by a gullible and apparently hopeless media.

No matter who wrote the question, it brings up several serious questions, none of which seem to be getting asked or answered.

American people should be very angry over two things (at least) now. The soldiers are ill-equipped and the news media is useless. If they aren't angry about this they are gullible.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Dec 10 2004, 09:06 PM
Well, I'm not sure what how a newspaper chooses to report a story has to do with Americans being gullable....but....

Here's what I think about the situation.

Maybe the reporter should have mentioned that he planted the question in the article he wroter for HIS newspaper.

But, to think that a US soldier would ask the Secretary of Defense a question of that nature without believing in the question himself is D U M B. I wonder, was the applause planted too? That makes the planting of the question irrelevant. The only ethical responsibility the reporter had was to his readership in Chattanooga.

Ridiculous.

I think what Rouge is saying is very similar to what I said earlier. I said watch the story change from one of having real significance (the military is poorly equiped, which is hard to believe when you consider the budget) to one where the media is chastized and becomes the "important" story with the quasi-news and the people. The play this is getting goes exactly to script. Someone breaks a story on a serious issue and then spends the next two weeks being vilified in the RW media as being a left wing unAmerican wacko. Its been the modus operandi of the Bush admin since they took office in 2001. It wouldn't be so bad if it were not so predictable. You can count on it happening as the Whitehouse's best form of damage control. Again, there are those that say the media has a liberal bias, but they have yet to explain how quickly the media jumps on someone for making a less than flattering report against the Whitehouse. It's a strange and wonderous thing. The "liberal" media providing high cover for the neo-conservatives in office. I still laugh thinking some people haven't seen the obvious conflict in ideology and in terms.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that, though I'd hardly call the drudge report 'mainstream media'.

The thing about this is that this is not a new issue. We've been hearing for months that the soldier weren't adequately equipped. Remember? Kerry was hammered for voting against defense increases that would've provided better equipment for the soldiers. The difference here is that...

1. Rumsfeld was put on the spot about it, finally.
2. The soldiers know they aren't properly equipped and aren't happy about it.

I'm not sure it's a shocking revelation though. I think what you guys are saying relies on it being just that.

[Displaced Flames fan]

By the way, 2/3 of the media sources you nailed for changing gears on the story are newspapers. That's why I used the word.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Dec 10 2004, 04:45 PM
Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that, though I'd hardly call the drudge report 'mainstream media'.

The thing about this is that this is not a new issue. We've been hearing for months that the soldier weren't adequately equipped. Remember? Kerry was hammered for voting against defense increases that would've provided better equipment for the soldiers. The difference here is that...

1. Rumsfeld was put on the spot about it, finally.
2. The soldiers know they aren't properly equipped and aren't happy about it.

I'm not sure it's a shocking revelation though. I think what you guys are saying relies on it being just that.

I worded it improperly but what I meant was that the Drudge Report started it and everyone else picked up on it. The crazed lefties at CNN don't have "Rumsfeld questioned about unarmed trucks" but "Rumsfeld question planted". Yahoo is painting the whole thing as a "staged media event".

You make a good point -- it is an old story. Before the war even began I saw a story (I've said this before in here I believe so bear with me) about a small military town in which the departing Hummers were being outfitted with armor in the local high school shop class using donated steel. This must have been at least 2 years ago so that begs yet another question that needs asking but nobody asks. Why not? Laziness? Total lack of curiosity? Complicity?

What the reporter did might in fact save American lives but instead of being praised for calling attention to an important story he's being painted as some sort of Svengali in a pink cape. The soldier that actually asked the question is being painted as a complete moron.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Dec 11 2004, 12:13 AM


What the reporter did might in fact save American lives but instead of being praised for calling attention to an important story he's being painted as some sort of Svengali in a pink cape. The soldier that actually asked the question is being painted as a complete moron.

Exactly. That's what I have a problem with.

I'll say this. The elite media in this country, left or right, has ALWAYS believed that we are stupid. So, they report to us in that manner. It's always been that way and it will probably never change.

As I said, to insinuate (as anyone who questions the legitimacy of the question because it was planted by a reporter does) that the soldier in question and all of his applauding comrades did not believe in the question itself is assinine. These guys respect Donald Rumsfeld whether they agree with him or not. He is their superior. They're not going to ask some question they don't think is an issue because some embedded reporter asked them to.

That's what all this uproar regarding the reporter leads to. It couldn't be more wrong.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Dec 11 2004, 12:13 AM
I worded it improperly but what I meant was that the Drudge Report started it and everyone else picked up on it. The crazed lefties at CNN don't have "Rumsfeld questioned about unarmed trucks" but "Rumsfeld question planted". Yahoo is painting the whole thing as a "staged media event".

It's damage control by the pro-Bush media and it worked like a charm.