Electoral Reform in Ontario?

[FireFly]

http://www.yourbigdecision.ca/en_ca/default.aspx

Apparently Ontario is putting a question to referendum, and I really hope that voters come out for this one. It could impact all of Canada if it gets passed. The question is whether or not people want to stick with the First-past-the-post system or go with a Mixed Member Proportional system.

Anyone from Ontario voting in this? Has the government made a lot of effort to educate the public, or are they doing what happened in BC and scaring the voters away from an MMP system?

[jolinar of malkshor]

I agree that we need a more representative electoral system even though it will hurt the two major parties.

[jamesteterenko]

I personally believe that this would be good for Canada. I believe that first-past-the-post becomes less effective the more legitimate parties that run in election.

By the way, BC tried this 2005, and it was narrowly defeated. They needed 60% support overall and 60% of the ridings to have a majority. They got the number of ridings (77 of 79), but just barely missed on the overall support (57.7%). I watched it, hoping for it to pass. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...rendum%2C_2005

[Vulcan]

Yeah, I voted for that in BC. It's not a simple system but I liked it. It will take a while to educate the public on how it works. Probably most aren't that interested to find out so maybe they should teach it in school so future voters will endorse it. Good luck to Ontario in setting a precedent.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by FireFly

http://www.yourbigdecision.ca/en_ca/default.aspx

Apparently Ontario is putting a question to referendum, and I really hope that voters come out for this one. It could impact all of Canada if it gets passed. The question is whether or not people want to stick with the First-past-the-post system or go with a Mixed Member Proportional system.

Anyone from Ontario voting in this? Has the government made a lot of effort to educate the public, or are they doing what happened in BC and scaring the voters away from an MMP system?

Is that what happened there? I know that the majority of voters still selected the STV system on the ballot there, but not the super-majority that was required to pass it. Nonetheless it will be the subject of another referendum due to the public support.

Electoral reform is the one area of the constitution I'm 100% in favour of re-opening the constitution for! One day real democracy will be the case in Canada...I just hope that its within my lifetime!

[Ro]

Originally Posted by FireFly

[URL]Has the government made a lot of effort to educate the public, or are they doing what happened in BC and scaring the voters away from an MMP system?

To answer the bolded part, no. Not at all. In fact, it's the exact opposite- both the Liberals and the Tories want nothing to do with rep. by pop., as it would cut into the number if seats held by their party's MPs. They're more than happy with the status quo. Which, of course, involves one of those two parties being first-past-the-post with less than half the popular vote, with less than half of the public even bothering to come out and vote.

Of course the Greens and NDP supporters are in favor of it, but without the clout and $$$, their voice is not being heard. People (not just in Ontario either) seem to have grown so cynical and disinterested with the voting process that many voters won't even bother voting in this referendum in the first place. Which is too bad.

But back to the publicity it's getting- even in a neglected Northern ON city like Sudbury, where this kind of system could have a significant impact, the only press it gets in the local paper is in the "letters to the editor" section, with the occasional article from another local paper thrown in there in the "around the province" section. And that is about every 2 weeks.

I don't think it will pass, and that's a damn shame.

[Devils'Advocate]

There have been a few ads on TV....
There was one where a woman is mowing her lawn and her neighbor drops by and asks her if she will take care of his dog while he is on vacation. The woman can't hear the question because of the lawn mower, so she just nods thinking the man said something inoquous like "having a good day?". The man then lets his great Dane (or some other large dog) into the womans home and starts breaking her lamps. The ad ends with "if you are being asked to give an answer, make sure you understand the question". And then they pop up a web site that explains how this whole thing works.

Problem is that there are millions and millions of people voting and only the thousands that give a know what proportional representation is and what it is about. Probably only hundreds understand THIS style of proportional representation.

This doesn't have a prayer of passing. Which is too bad.

[ernie]

Didn't PEI vote on something like this as well?

[mykalberta]

The only way I would vite for it would be to change the elections to fixed dates and change to a Presidential style system where 1 person is the foreign head of state and the voted members handle domestic issues.

MYK

[Devils'Advocate]

So it's over. The referendum lost. 60% voted for FPTP and 40% voted for PR (MMP version such as New Zealand and Germany). But what I find humorous is the effect that this question would have had on the outcome of this election.

Popular Vote:
40% Liberal
30% PC
20% NDP
10% Green

Seat count:
70% Liberal
20% PC
10% NDP

So, despite 60% of the population voting against the Liberals, they get a MASSIVE majority of the seats and will run the province like the dictatorship that they have in the last four years. *sigh*

Anyhow, I don't think that 60% to 40% actually shows an accurate reading. Because most people didn't know what was going on. The person directly in front of me asked why she was being given two ballots. The person at the polling station said that one was for the election and the other for the referendum. The voter said "Oh, I didn't hear anything about any referendum". And it was the same thing all across the province - I read one story this morning about a polling station worker who said she was constantly being bombarded by voters asking to explain the referendum question, but she wasn't allowed to answer them. If someone doesn't know the advantages/disadvantages they are going to vote for the status quo. But I think PR is doomed across Canada just because the majority party has no interest in having PR put in place. The Liberals didn't spend nearly enough money informing the people about the issue for them to make an educated decision. Why didn't they inform the people properly? Look at the election results.

[jam26]

I voted against it. It's way too complex and I'm not in favour of more high-paid bureaucrats at the trough - particularly when they don't have to be elected in.

I have family in Germany who say they adopted the proposed system and it has led to many unintended consequences.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

So, despite 60% of the population voting against the Liberals, they get a MASSIVE majority of the seats and will run the province like the dictatorship that they have in the last four years. *sigh*

Their power is held in check by the fact that Ontario voters have demonstrated that parties that don't follow the wishes of the people get voted out the next election. This is the first time in three generations that the Liberals have won consecutive majorities.

Anyhow, I don't think that 60% to 40% actually shows an accurate reading. Because most people didn't know what was going on. The person directly in front of me asked why she was being given two ballots. The person at the polling station said that one was for the election and the other for the referendum. The voter said "Oh, I didn't hear anything about any referendum". And it was the same thing all across the province - I read one story this morning about a polling station worker who said she was constantly being bombarded by voters asking to explain the referendum question, but she wasn't allowed to answer them. If someone doesn't know the advantages/disadvantages they are going to vote for the status quo. But I think PR is doomed across Canada just because the majority party has no interest in having PR put in place. The Liberals didn't spend nearly enough money informing the people about the issue for them to make an educated decision. Why didn't they inform the people properly? Look at the election results.

Everyone's voting ballet had a pamphlet explaining the referendum. If people are so apathetic that they don't want to read the pamphlet, that's their problem. Spending millions of dollars more to spoonfeed apathetic voters is a waste of money.

[Frank the Tank]

Another election passes, and Frank sits at his desk the following day steaming mad. The voter turnout in this country is pathetic. Wars are fought for the right to vote, yet people like my co-workers don't even care. They can't even be bothered to vote, to have a say in every aspect of their lives. I don't understand....

On an up-side.....my wife and I voted while our three-year old son watched. When we were done he was ticked off because he wanted to vote. So the ladies folded up a piece of paper and gave him a pencil and off he went behid the screen with mommy to vote. He drew a balloon, folded up the paper and handed it back to the ladies. He was so proud!!

[Resolute 14]

The right to vote includes the right not to vote. Personally, I hate the argument that one should vote because our grandfathers fought in the great wars.

Frankly, I'd rather the ignorant did not vote.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

The right to vote includes the right not to vote. Personally, I hate the argument that one should vote because our grandfathers fought in the great wars.

Frankly, I'd rather the ignorant did not vote.

While I agree with your point, it would be interesting to know if people don't vote because: they're ignorant, they're apathetic, they don't think their vote makes a difference, or they are jaded against the entire political process.

I don't think you can really find out (you can ask but I doubt people will admit they are too stupid to vote).

[mykalberta]

It will never work unless you change the whole game and have a separate election for the leader of the province/country.

[getbak]

I'm just glad that I can watch HNiC-HD now without every other commercial being about Dalton McGuinty suing autistic children.

[Ford Prefect]

I'm 1000% in favour of electoral reform, but there are other systems to consider in addtition to MMP. If we're going to change the system, let's look at all the options and make sure we get it right.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

The right to vote includes the right not to vote. Personally, I hate the argument that one should vote because our grandfathers fought in the great wars.

Frankly, I'd rather the ignorant did not vote.

No kidding. I think voters should have to fill out a brief questionnaire to prove they're familiar enough with the candidates, issues, etc. to deserve their ballot. It's not bleeping Canadian Idol!

[Frank the Tank]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

The right to vote includes the right not to vote. Personally, I hate the argument that one should vote because our grandfathers fought in the great wars.

Frankly, I'd rather the ignorant did not vote.

It annoys me so much because it is usually just laziness. The issues are there for you to read about, just pick up an effing paper and get informed. Its not hard. Not voting is just the out right laziest thing you can do. You're letting a minority decide the course of your everyday life. Thats just idiotic.