10-29-2004, 02:34 PM
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#1
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Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Virginia
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Bin Laden video: Americans' security does not depend on the president they elect, but on U.S. policy. "Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda." Details soon
Kind of unexpected comments.
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10-29-2004, 02:52 PM
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#2
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Estonia
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10-29-2004, 02:53 PM
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#3
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: not lurking
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Yeah, that is somewhat unexpected.
Maybe he's just p*ssed off about each side claiming that Bin Laden wants the other side to win, and set the record straight that he doesn't care. It's strange that he implies that a change in US policy would make the US safer--somehow I suspect that al Qaeda has a fairly deep grudge at this point.
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10-29-2004, 06:59 PM
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#4
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Atomic Nerd
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Calgary
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What the point is that Bin Laden is arguing that Al Quada and all Islamic militancy and extremism is not about them being evil (which they obviously are in today's modern sense) and not about them being against freedom...otherwise they would have "attacked Sweden". But rather that they want freedom in their own states and to establish islamic theocracy and Sharia laws ... which of course will lead to tyranny and oppression...but these evil bas**rds (watch those beheading videos and you'll harbour nothing but hatred for these groups, especially Zarqwai's) of course think that tyranny and oppression (especially of political dissidence, western ideas, arts, and all women) is the righteous will of Allah. Maybe he's trying to appeal to those Muslims that are moderate but leaning towards Militancy?
This is all just a case of ego. Most of them are just tired from what they see as defeat and defeat, humilation and humilation under western domination for centuries in everything from society to economy to technology. Isn't funny how the 80s glorified Jihadists in movies like James Bond: The Living Daylights as "freedom fighters" against the Evil of Communism?
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10-29-2004, 10:41 PM
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#5
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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10-29-2004, 10:52 PM
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#6
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 Posted the 6 millionth post!
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It seems to be one Binny's more balanced statements, but once again, I think the message in this tape is simply to stir more frustration among the American people with the Bush government, and that's not a bad thing. I think it's comments like this that will make people think harder about who truly to vote for, even if bin Laden is impartial on who is in power. By exposing directly his distain with U.S. foreign policy and not with freedom itself is a clear shot at the Bush administration and its supporters.
Ironically though, this is the most chilling media I think al-Queda has released, as it seems to go beyond protecting Islam as a rationale for attack, which has been the theme for so many prior releases.
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10-29-2004, 10:56 PM
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#7
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clinching Party
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I saw some interesting comments re: this tape.
One Republican said "this will remind the American people that he is still out there and George is the one to get him bla bla bla". The reply to that was "this will remind the American people that he's still out there and George hasn't got him yet".
That one is a bit of a saw-off.
Walter Cronkhite was on Larry King and he was on about how this tape and it's presentation could be the beginning of an effort to get Osama a place at the table as an actual statesman and negotiator -- there is a "leadership vacuum" in the Middle East and he'd like to fill it. Yeah - good luck with that OBL.
He also commented on how it was a threat, but kind of indirectly, and it left some room for compromise. Cronkhite saw the message as "you stop doing what you are doing, you will not be attacked" as opposed to the old fashioned "we will attack you with all the fury and the hatred and death et cetera" that is so familiar.
I can't remember who it was, but someone mentioned (perhaps jokingly, but not 100%) that Karl Rove was behind this because they want to get that pesky missing weapons story off the front page.
My take on it -- there is so much garbage raining down from the heavens every couple hours that this tape will have zero effect on the election. Average Jane/Joe just can't keep up and even if they wanted to they already made up their mind. Some message from a fanatic stuck in the mountains eating raw goat and crapping in his own cave isn't going to change their mind.
Oh yeah, and just for good measure, I'll tell you that old Cronkhite said that he doesn't think this election will be decided until springtime, and the Supreme Court will be making the call. If the NHL doesn't come back, at least we'll have a diversion. I wonder now who will be the first to say "yeah, but you are no constitutional expert so what the hell do you know"? Probably me.
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10-30-2004, 03:53 AM
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#8
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Section 218
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Some incrediable quotes in this. Why do people have such a hard time seeing he has a coherent argument for the use of force? I don't agree with it, you don't agree with it, but his people see it; America is an imperialist nation that is in his opinion a corrupt power trying to take away what little his people have. Not like America does not give him ample munition to use in forming his argument....
Quote:
"It never occurred to us that the commander in chief of the American armed forces would leave 50,000 of his citizens in the two towers to face these horrors alone," he said, referring to the number of people who worked at the World Trade Center.
"It appeared to him (Bush) that a little girl's talk about her goat and its butting was more important than the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers. That gave us three times the required time to carry out the operations, thank God," he said.
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How does this help Bush? Michael Moore is still an idiot though, right?
Quote:
Bin Laden compared the Bush administration to repressive Arab regimes, "half of which are ruled by the military and the other half are ruled by the sons of kings and presidents."
He said the resemblance became clear when Bush's father was president and visited Arab countries.
"He wound up being impressed by the royal and military regimes and envied them for staying decades in their positions and embezzling the nation's money with no supervision," bin Laden said.
"He passed on tyranny and oppression to his son, and they called it the Patriot Act, under the pretext of fighting terror. Bush the father did well in placing his sons as governors and did not forget to pass on the expertise in fraud from the leaders of the (Mideast) region to Florida to use it in critical moments."
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Interesting take on it. Freedom to get to the top inherient in our society or the elites looking after their own and protecting their plump asses?
What is interesting here is if you know the history of Bin Laden you know how the Americans had him exiled to prevent him from toppling the Saudi royal family in a democratic uprising. It is not like he has been left with a rosey picture of American Administrative ideals...
To put it into context, in many ways in the arab world he is an outsider more then the Administration has led the public to believe, in many ways being a 'violent progressive', as opposed to a 'violent, traditionalist regressive.' In either case he resprts to violence to get his point accross, but the content of his point is not necessarily easily dismissed. That is probably far too relativist an approch for peoples tastes here though... sorry?
Quote:
In the video, bin Laden accused Bush of misleading Americans by saying the attack was carried out because al-Qaida members "hate freedom." The terrorist leader said his followers have left alone countries that do not threaten Muslims.
"We fought you because we are free ... and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours," bin Laden said.
He said he was first inspired to attack the United States by the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon in which towers and buildings in Beirut were destroyed in the siege of the capital.
"While I was looking at these destroyed towers in Lebanon, it sparked in my mind that the tyrant should be punished with the same and that we should destroy towers in America, so that it tastes what we taste and would be deterred from killing our children and women," he said.
"God knows that it had not occurred to our mind to attack the towers, but after our patience ran out and we saw the injustice and inflexibility of the American-Israeli alliance toward our people in Palestine and Lebanon, this came to my mind," he said.
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The point is that while YOU may not like what he is saying or take seriously the accusations he has made, he HAS been given reason to think the way he does. In fact i think you could argue fairly that his accusations are more in touch with reality then comments like Bush's classic (as in the article) "the terrorists just hate freedom". How can you fight an enemy you do not respect or even try to understand it/them?
Not trying to sympathize with Bin Laden, he does make some points though. Too bad the average voter will see the sound bite on TV or a headline in the paper and not persue it further.
Claeren.
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10-30-2004, 07:15 AM
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#9
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Lifetime Suspension
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The point is that while YOU may not like what he is saying or take seriously the accusations he has made, he HAS been given reason to think the way he does.
Well then I guess the KKK and any other white supremacy groupreally has a point? I mean they HAVE been given reason to think the way they do. Or are they, like Bin 'hind'n Laden just bigotted crackpots/meglomaniacs?
How can you fight an enemy you do not respect or even try to understand it/them
The allies in WWII never understood nor respected the Japanese. They just pounded them mercilessly until they gave up. That has been the 'Western ' way since the Greeks.
Not trying to sympathize with Bin Laden, he does make some points though.
He is just trying tp rationalize his mass murder the way the Nazis and Commies did and do. Yes he is fighting for Freedom  As long as all the Jews are dead or driven from the Middle East and Spain is retrieved from the infidels. What possible reason would you have to sypathise with?
I think the only question remaining is....
Are there any holdouts left in the Muslim world, and their Lefty apologists in the West, that still believe that it wasn't Muslims who perpetrated that crime?
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10-30-2004, 09:39 AM
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#10
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Calgary
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Well then I guess the KKK and any other white supremacy groupreally has a point? I mean they HAVE been given reason to think the way they do. Or are they, like Bin 'hind'n Laden just bigotted crackpots/meglomaniacs?
Maybe it's just me, but I doubt the KKK saw black people blowing up their buildings in their own country. In my world, choosing to sit on the "white" bus is not equivalent to blowing up someone's country.
He is just trying tp rationalize his mass murder the way the Nazis and Commies did and do. Yes he is fighting for Freedom As long as all the Jews are dead or driven from the Middle East and Spain is retrieved from the infidels. What possible reason would you have to sypathise with?
I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but to play Devil's Advocate: calling them terrorists and evil people is a way for Bush et. all to rationalize their mass murder too, isn't it? Blowing up buildings and killing all sorts of people (including 'collateral damage') in Iraq all in the name of American "freedom." When the Nazis decided to make Eurpoe judenfrei they said they were doing it for the protection and well-being of the German citizens... not saying Bush is the next Hitler or America is the next facist state, but just showing that EVERY side in a conflict has ways to justify mass murder.
It all depends on which side of the window you are looking in from...
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10-30-2004, 09:50 AM
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#11
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Osama Bin Laden....................................alive.... ........................righhhhhhhhht
__________________
"Man, so long as he remains free, has no more constant and agonizing anxiety than to find, as quickly as possible, someone to worship."
Fyodor Dostoevsky - The Brothers Karamazov
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10-30-2004, 12:27 PM
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#13
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Franchise Player
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Well, whatever this is bad for the electiona and more for Kerry I think. I heard that Bush's rating jumps about 2 % higher when there's an alert colour raised, this has gotta have the same effect on the US public. Kind of an, I'm still here, threating you. p*sses me off, I actually credit Bush for not being partisan in his response and saying "The American people will not be influenced by an enemy of our state". Kerry was a little more campaingning with his statemenst. But I guess he needs to be, he's not the incumbent.
__________________
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Insulted Other Member(s)
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10-30-2004, 12:32 PM
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#14
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flame On@Oct 30 2004, 06:27 PM
Bush's rating jumps about 2 % higher when there's an alert colour raised
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Osama.................alive....................... .............righhhhhhhhhhhhht
__________________
"Man, so long as he remains free, has no more constant and agonizing anxiety than to find, as quickly as possible, someone to worship."
Fyodor Dostoevsky - The Brothers Karamazov
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10-30-2004, 02:02 PM
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#15
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clinching Party
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Quote:
Originally posted by HOZ@Oct 30 2004, 07:15 AM
[
Are there any holdouts left in the Muslim world, and their Lefty apologists in the West, that still believe that it wasn't Muslims who perpetrated that crime?
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Ahh yes, the old "lefty apologist" angle.
The guy confesses to a crime, tells us his motivation, and you say "nope, that's not why, he hates our freedoms and if you disagree with that, you think he's great and what he does is good".
I love that one.
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10-30-2004, 07:18 PM
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#16
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Section 218
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HOZ, your arguments are as empty, transparent, and as just plain silly as your presidents.
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The U.S. is the world's greatest military power. Always projecting an image of reluctance and innocence, American presidents attack and intervene in the affairs of other countries. They routinely claim history, providence, destiny or some other abstraction has conferred certain obligations on Washington. The U.S. practices imperialism without formal colonies. Surrogates, often trained in the U.S., are recruited to rule. They implement and enforce Washington's rules. If the natives raise their heads and revolt the empire's centurions are called in. To effectively carry out its imperial projects the "free press" play the vital role of keeping the citizenry in the dark. What can the public do in the age of empire?
Arundhati Roy
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Claeren.
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10-30-2004, 07:43 PM
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#17
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Kalispell, Montana
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Quote:
Originally posted by Claeren@Oct 31 2004, 01:18 AM
HOZ, your arguments are as empty, transparent, and as just plain silly as your presidents.
Claeren.
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Canada and Japan don't have Presidents.
__________________
I am in love with Montana. For other states I have admiration, respect, recognition, even some affection, but with Montana it is love." - John Steinbeck
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10-30-2004, 08:32 PM
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#18
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Oct 30 2004, 08:02 PM
Ahh yes, the old "lefty apologist" angle.
The guy confesses to a crime, tells us his motivation, and you say "nope, that's not why, he hates our freedoms and if you disagree with that, you think he's great and what he does is good".
I love that one.
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They're streaming out of the woodwork now....
Yes, the Nazis and Communists (ok...not all) admitted their crime which to them wasn't a crime. Documented it and their reasons. Would you say they loved our freedoms? Yet somehow this guy gets away without your vitrol..all saved up for Bush.
Bin Hind'n Laden
This is a man who has more money than all of the Peoples Republic of Saskatchewan. He bankrolled the Taleban and their ruler(s). You saw what kind of country he likes. Or was that what you liked? He is part of the Wahabi Sunni Sect. Wahibism does NOT see any other religion but their own strict codes as legit. As a matter of fact they look to eradicate any others by any means. Try Christianity or Shi'ism in Saudi Arabia or Falujeh!
This man is a murderer. His BS excuses should hardly be given a moments notice other than to remind us that there is garbage out there like him. If really alive he will face justice someday. It is time to stop making excuses or apologies for this guy or his ilk. All criminals try to excuse their crimes. Hardly make is ok. Except for the now very pathetic Lefty-apologists like Claeren.
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10-31-2004, 08:30 AM
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#19
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally posted by HOZ+Oct 30 2004, 08:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HOZ @ Oct 30 2004, 08:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@Oct 30 2004, 08:02 PM
Ahh yes, the old "lefty apologist" angle.
The guy confesses to a crime, tells us his motivation, and you say "nope, that's not why, he hates our freedoms and if you disagree with that, you think he's great and what he does is good".
I love that one.
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They're streaming out of the woodwork now....
Yes, the Nazis and Communists (ok...not all) admitted their crime which to them wasn't a crime. Documented it and their reasons. Would you say they loved our freedoms? Yet somehow this guy gets away without your vitrol..all saved up for Bush.
Bin Hind'n Laden
This is a man who has more money than all of the Peoples Republic of Saskatchewan. He bankrolled the Taleban and their ruler(s). You saw what kind of country he likes. Or was that what you liked? He is part of the Wahabi Sunni Sect. Wahibism does NOT see any other religion but their own strict codes as legit. As a matter of fact they look to eradicate any others by any means. Try Christianity or Shi'ism in Saudi Arabia or Falujeh!
This man is a murderer. His BS excuses should hardly be given a moments notice other than to remind us that there is garbage out there like him. If really alive he will face justice someday. It is time to stop making excuses or apologies for this guy or his ilk. All criminals try to excuse their crimes. Hardly make is ok. Except for the now very pathetic Lefty-apologists like Claeren. [/b][/quote]
I think there's a difference between making excuses for someone, and just recognizing that there are always two sides to a story.
I want to see the guy captured, and I actually said that after it was determined that he was behind 9/11, the US may have the first televised execution ever (which I would watch as I'm a morbid SOB).
What I think most people are pointing out is that you hate him because you saw him blow up your buildings and kill your people. He hates the US for the same reason. He saw the US blow up his buildings (pre-9/11) and kill his people... the hatred you feel for him is probably equal to the hatred he feels for Americans.
Should people feel bad for him for this, and saw "awww, I guess we're even now, so we'll just let you go"? Nope. But people (esp. Americans) should really think long and hard about how they are and realize that as much as they'd like it to be true, their beliefs and values are not universal. It is an incredibly tough job for the US to do that, as being the only superpower, they are in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation, but thinking that it's okay to just walk into countries to install "American Freedom" isn't a very productive way of encouraging people of the world to like and respect them.
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10-31-2004, 08:40 AM
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#20
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally posted by HOZ@Oct 31 2004, 02:32 AM
Except for the now very pathetic Lefty-apologists like Claeren.
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The way I figure it, the first person to start throwing names and values around loses.
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