[Game Takes] Senators 3 Flames 1

[Bingo]

Game Takes: Senators 3 Flames 1

- Flames have 1-0 lead into the third
- Back to back Senator goals erases lead and delivers loss
- Flames only generate 3 high danger chances in 60 minutes
- that playoff reach seems pretty steep now

[1qqaaz]

I wonder if they should try out Andersson and Valimaki as the second pairing.

Until we see Mark Giordano and Rasmus Andersson apart we will never know the answer to the question of what the problem is? Is it Giordano? Is it Andersson? Bad mix? Giordano looked good with Juuso Valimaki in limited action earlier this year, so why not?

Or try this.

If the Flames are out of it, they might as well use it as an opportunity to develop Valimaki

[calgarywinning]

Bingo, what is the answer going forward? Surprised you missed the Hanifin no coverage for the go ahead goal by Ottawa. That was brutal coverage.

I was seriously shocked we couldn't pull points out of these two games.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Lindholm himself was out to lunch on the go ahead goal too. Have to wonder what was up with him today.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Game Takes: Senators 3 Flames 1

- Flames have 1-0 lead into the third
- Back to back Senator goals erases lead and delivers loss
- Flames only generate 3 high danger chances in 60 minutes
- that playoff reach seems pretty steep now

3 chances?

Thay were all over Ottawa in the fort period. Probably could have scored 5 with some luck.

[D as in David]

I'm wondering whether Backlund is injured. He was 14% in faceoffs and while I didn't pay attention to every one he took, there were two of them where he literally didn't move a muscle to win it. It was very strange.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Perimeter play. It is excruciating

Sutter’s strategy seems to be:
No turnovers in the neutral zone. Unless you see something sugar coated and handed to you, dump it in and get to work
If you have gained the zone and don’t have a 100% risk free passing option, put it in a corner (I saw Gaudreau do this when he was the only Flame in the zone, and there was nobody anywhere near to chase. Not tonight, but another game I saw Tkachuk do it on a 2 on 2 with Lindholm)

When you get position in the neutral zone, ring it around the boards to the far D, who may pinch.
Just get pucks to the net. You never know what might turn in to a goal
If you get a lead, make no mistakes for the rest of the game and lock it down

Now when they practiced, you saw them doing all of those one touch passes. So you know that Sutter knows that speed comes from crisp assertive puck movement more so than from foot speed. But that was absolutely nowhere to be seen in the game play.

More instances tonight of poorly timed dumps requiring tag ups. (I recall Crosby telling one of his wingers not to let up when entering the zone, Crosby would make sure he didn’t go offside)

Last game I saw the team making changes at 30 seconds into their shift, when they had control in the o zone, and neutering their own strategy of being in front for point shots.

This team is looking like Brent Sutter ‘paralysis by analysis’ hockey. Players look afraid to make a mistake

They also look expressionless, emotionless and utterly joyless.

The hope seems to be that they get the defensive details so perfect that they know exactly when to take a high percentage offensive chance

All of this ‘we are not a high scoring team’ is like the Brent Sutter ‘we are not the kind of team that can score off the rush’ bull ####.

I was hoping with Darryl that he saw what style the team needed to play, given their skill and size, and the verdict is unknown. There is too much of this dumping and perimeter nonsense, and I am not sure if it is his wish, or his mandated second option if that’s all they have

Thing is, you can’t neuter yourself offensively if you can’t be perfect defensively. And there is no practice time this year to make perfect D an option.

All I know for sure is that I don’t enjoy what I have been seeing lately, Darryl can’t be enjoying this, and the players sure aren’t.

Huh. Maybe everybody *is* injured

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Red

3 chances?

Thay were all over Ottawa in the fort period. Probably could have scored 5 with some luck.

This heat map pretty much shows the issue.



Calgary's more dense areas are the left point, and on an angle from the right face off circle. Almost nothing in the middle.

The Senators have shading in the mid two high slot and two goals.

Calgary carried the play, but their offence works from the perimeter. They score goals when pucks hit players and bounce in or when an arriving player finds a rebound. Nothing on the rush and nothing towards the middle of the net.

Didn't start the season that way, but it's certainly been a problem for the last six weeks.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

Bingo, what is the answer going forward? Surprised you missed the Hanifin no coverage for the go ahead goal by Ottawa. That was brutal coverage.

I was seriously shocked we couldn't pull points out of these two games.

Hanifin was stuck on the ice for almost 3.5 minutes. He was bagged.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Perimeter play. It is excruciating

Sutter’s strategy seems to be:
No turnovers in the neutral zone. Unless you see something sugar coated and handed to you, dump it in and get to work
If you have gained the zone and don’t have a 100% risk free passing option, put it in a corner (I saw Gaudreau do this when he was the only Flame in the zone, and there was nobody anywhere near to chase. Not tonight, but another game I saw Tkachuk do it on a 2 on 2 with Lindholm)

When you get position in the neutral zone, ring it around the boards to the far D, who may pinch.
Just get pucks to the net. You never know what might turn in to a goal
If you get a lead, make no mistakes for the rest of the game and lock it down

Now when they practiced, you saw them doing all of those one touch passes. So you know that Sutter knows that speed comes from crisp assertive puck movement more so than from foot speed. But that was absolutely nowhere to be seen in the game play.

More instances tonight of poorly timed dumps requiring tag ups. (I recall Crosby telling one of his wingers not to let up when entering the zone, Crosby would make sure he didn’t go offside)

Last game I saw the team making changes at 30 seconds into their shift, when they had control in the o zone, and neutering their own strategy of being in front for point shots.

This team is looking like Brent Sutter ‘paralysis by analysis’ hockey. Players look afraid to make a mistake

They also look expressionless, emotionless and utterly joyless.

The hope seems to be that they get the defensive details so perfect that they know exactly when to take a high percentage offensive chance

All of this ‘we are not a high scoring team’ is like the Brent Sutter ‘we are not the kind of team that can score off the rush’ bull ####.

I was hoping with Darryl that he saw what style the team needed to play, given their skill and size, and the verdict is unknown. There is too much of this dumping and perimeter nonsense, and I am not sure if it is his wish, or his mandated second option if that’s all they have

Thing is, you can’t neuter yourself offensively if you can’t be perfect defensively. And there is no practice time this year to make perfect D an option.

All I know for sure is that I don’t enjoy what I have been seeing lately, Darryl can’t be enjoying this, and the players sure aren’t.

Huh. Maybe everybody *is* injured

This cannot be overstated. Hartley changed it and for a few years and we had an up tempo exciting style of play. Now we're going back to grind hockey. Sutter hockey has always had high shot totals but not so sure what the quality of those were. So most games we may have more shots than the other team but low scoring. If I recall this is where dissension between Iggy and Brent started when he was tasked to "simplify" his game. Darryl Sutter is good, no doubt when the roster fits his style. Similar to Ken Hitchcock.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

This cannot be overstated. Hartley changed it and for a few years and we had an up tempo exciting style of play. Now we're going back to grind hockey. Sutter hockey has always had high shot totals but not so sure what the quality of those were. So most games we may have more shots than the other team but low scoring. If I recall this is where dissension between Iggy and Brent started when he was tasked to "simplify" his game. Darryl Sutter is good, no doubt when the roster fits his style. Similar to Ken Hitchcock.

Hartley's teams didn't have as much talent for sure.

But they were far from fire wagon hockey, and were consistently out played.

GF60

Bill Peters 2.61
Geoff Ward 2.57
Glen Gulutzan 2.21
Bob Hartley 2.20

xGF60

Bill Peters 2.37
Geoff Ward 2.37
Glen Gulutzan 2.24
Bob Hartley 1.98

SCF60

Bill Peters 27.9
Geoff Ward 27.4
Glen Gulutzan 26.1
Bob Hartley 23.0

HDCF60

Bill Peters 10.9
Geoff Ward 10.9
Glen Gulutzan 10.6
Bob Hartley 8.9

He didn't really move the needle offensively.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Lindholm himself was out to lunch on the go ahead goal too. Have to wonder what was up with him today.

He's kind of escaped criticism because everyone thinks he plays a well rounded game but outside of playing the Oilers (seems to be the only time he hits that 2nd gear) he's been as lethargic as the rest of the core players.

[Calgary4LIfe]

This team may not be a contender (to be generous here), but they shouldn't be this awful at generating offence.



I noticed that things drastically improved under Darryl in terms of defensive play, but in the last few games the Flames are once again allowing odd-man rushes against. It is better defensive hockey overall, unquestionably, but I notice some poor play starting to creep-in again on the defensive side of things.


Darryl really needs to sit down and figure out how to get this team to start scoring goals. Monahan may be hurt, but there is still a reasonable amount of firepower on this team to put the puck in the net more often than they have been. They should at least be a middle-of-the-road team in that category.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This team may not be a contender (to be generous here), but they shouldn't be this awful at generating offence.



I noticed that things drastically improved under Darryl in terms of defensive play, but in the last few games the Flames are once again allowing odd-man rushes against. It is better defensive hockey overall, unquestionably, but I notice some poor play starting to creep-in again on the defensive side of things.


Darryl really needs to sit down and figure out how to get this team to start scoring goals. Monahan may be hurt, but there is still a reasonable amount of firepower on this team to put the puck in the net more often than they have been. They should at least be a middle-of-the-road team in that category.

When I watch the games I just keep seeing five or six really good secondary forwards, but no play driving stars to speak of.

If you had an elite forward, the team would easily be able to use the Gaudreau's Monahan's Tkachuk's and Lindholm's effectively.

But they don't.

I said this before Ward was let go. This league is driven by young individual talent, and Calgary doesn't have a player on the roster that can drive the game that way.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

This cannot be overstated. Hartley changed it and for a few years and we had an up tempo exciting style of play. Now we're going back to grind hockey. Sutter hockey has always had high shot totals but not so sure what the quality of those were. So most games we may have more shots than the other team but low scoring. If I recall this is where dissension between Iggy and Brent started when he was tasked to "simplify" his game. Darryl Sutter is good, no doubt when the roster fits his style. Similar to Ken Hitchcock.

If they are going to play Sutter hockey for the next few years there are probably 3-4 forwards that should be moved.

Johnny
Monahan
Backlund

They won’t fit this style.

I’d think hard about tkachuk as well. Technically you would think that style would fit him perfectly. But I’ve watched the 10 or so games with the new style and their are games I never see him. You’d probably get a good player back for him as well.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by Bingo

When I watch the games I just keep seeing five or six really good secondary forwards, but no play driving stars to speak of.

If you had an elite forward, the team would easily be able to use the Gaudreau's Monahan's Tkachuk's and Lindholm's effectively.

But they don't.

I said this before Ward was let go. This league is driven by young individual talent, and Calgary doesn't have a player on the roster that can drive the game that way.

And the way you get that kind of player is through trading assets (difficult if your assets aren’t very desirable), or through having top level first-round draft picks. Unfortunately, the Flames have picked the worst year to “win” a top level first rounder, because there’s so little data on which to make a draft pick decision, even at the 1-4 position.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Perimeter play. It is excruciating

Sutter’s strategy seems to be:
No turnovers in the neutral zone. Unless you see something sugar coated and handed to you, dump it in and get to work
If you have gained the zone and don’t have a 100% risk free passing option, put it in a corner (I saw Gaudreau do this when he was the only Flame in the zone, and there was nobody anywhere near to chase. Not tonight, but another game I saw Tkachuk do it on a 2 on 2 with Lindholm)

When you get position in the neutral zone, ring it around the boards to the far D, who may pinch.
Just get pucks to the net. You never know what might turn in to a goal
If you get a lead, make no mistakes for the rest of the game and lock it down

Now when they practiced, you saw them doing all of those one touch passes. So you know that Sutter knows that speed comes from crisp assertive puck movement more so than from foot speed. But that was absolutely nowhere to be seen in the game play.

More instances tonight of poorly timed dumps requiring tag ups. (I recall Crosby telling one of his wingers not to let up when entering the zone, Crosby would make sure he didn’t go offside)

Last game I saw the team making changes at 30 seconds into their shift, when they had control in the o zone, and neutering their own strategy of being in front for point shots.

This team is looking like Brent Sutter ‘paralysis by analysis’ hockey. Players look afraid to make a mistake

They also look expressionless, emotionless and utterly joyless.

The hope seems to be that they get the defensive details so perfect that they know exactly when to take a high percentage offensive chance

All of this ‘we are not a high scoring team’ is like the Brent Sutter ‘we are not the kind of team that can score off the rush’ bull ####.

I was hoping with Darryl that he saw what style the team needed to play, given their skill and size, and the verdict is unknown. There is too much of this dumping and perimeter nonsense, and I am not sure if it is his wish, or his mandated second option if that’s all they have

Thing is, you can’t neuter yourself offensively if you can’t be perfect defensively. And there is no practice time this year to make perfect D an option.

All I know for sure is that I don’t enjoy what I have been seeing lately, Darryl can’t be enjoying this, and the players sure aren’t.

Huh. Maybe everybody *is* injured

Understand the frustration, but how reasonable is it to expect that a team to change their style of play mid-season and perfect it quickly? This team looks like a team in transition where they are working on the things Darryl is teaching them, but it's not second nature yet so they can't walk and chew gum at the same time yet.

Unfortunately the window to make the playoffs is too small for them to have 'learning games' but my expectation is they will take a few more games to come out of this and will get to the other side. Still so many questions about roster construction too.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Bingo

When I watch the games I just keep seeing five or six really good secondary forwards, but no play driving stars to speak of.

If you had an elite forward, the team would easily be able to use the Gaudreau's Monahan's Tkachuk's and Lindholm's effectively.

But they don't.

I said this before Ward was let go. This league is driven by young individual talent, and Calgary doesn't have a player on the roster that can drive the game that way.

And do not have a single prospect who is going to do this.

It's honestly pretty bleak moving forward.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Bingo

When I watch the games I just keep seeing five or six really good secondary forwards, but no play driving stars to speak of.

If you had an elite forward, the team would easily be able to use the Gaudreau's Monahan's Tkachuk's and Lindholm's effectively.

But they don't.

I said this before Ward was let go. This league is driven by young individual talent, and Calgary doesn't have a player on the roster that can drive the game that way.

I didn't believe it at the time. I still felt that Gaudreau IS a 'superstar' that can make stuff happen (which, IMO, he very much was for a few seasons).


I am more inclined to believe this now. Still hope you are wrong, but you are looking right after all.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Understand the frustration, but how reasonable is it to expect that a team to change their style of play mid-season and perfect it quickly? This team looks like a team in transition where they are working on the things Darryl is teaching them, but it's not second nature yet so they can't walk and chew gum at the same time yet.

Unfortunately the window to make the playoffs is too small for them to have 'learning games' but my expectation is they will take a few more games to come out of this and will get to the other side. Still so many questions about roster construction too.

I totally agree with this sentiment. I think they are in the learning stage now. From what I have seen, it isn't a lack of effort right now, but feel for the new way to play hockey. i don't want to say new system, as Sutter has said that will change very little, but being hyper focused on positioning and defensive work will not allow a lot of brain space for offense.

Once the way Sutter wants them to play becomes second nature, or muscle memory, or whatever, then that will flow to the offensive game. The 3 high danger chances stands out to me because the Flames had a lot of zone time and pressure. Sure their chances were mostly perimeter shots, but I also thought there were a lot of pucks that were sent into high danger spots and the recipient was just a step behind or it was intercepted.

To me it looks like they no longer know where to expect each other. Everyone is feeling out how to play again and not doing things automatically. I can't even remember how many cross crease passes were either intercepted or just missed the other guy by inches.

They are doing the right things defensively and offensively pressure wise, but they are failing at clicking it together into successful shot attempts. The pessimist in me is fully on board the blow-it-up train, but the optimist in me sees a team playing like they could win 10 straight as soon as they get their timing on the same page.