Will the legacy of Ovechkin be that of a choker?

[ToewsFan]

Since 2005, Alexander Ovechkin has been one of the top two players in the world. Hart Trophies, Art Ross Trophies, Richard Trophies, All-Star selections, Presidents Trophies, etc. However, is A.O. destined to be remembered as "the guy who could not lead his team to the championship" rather than his individual on-ice performance.

Guys like Crosby, Malkin, Toews, and many others are regarded as clutch players, due to the success of the teams they play for, fair or unfair. Will Ovechkin be lumped in with Joe Thornton as being a player that just could not get it done in the playoffs?

Thoughts?

[bluejays]

Interesting and fair question. Hockey is much more of a team sport than a lot of others, so it's hard to see him as a choker. Really, is there any player in hockey whose legacy is a choker? I don't think so. I think it's more of the Caps somehow not being overall willing to play a more grind it out game when needed, but that's just me.

So no, I think he'll be remembered as a hard nosed Mike Bossy.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ToewsFan

Since 2005, Alexander Ovechkin has been one of the top two players in the world. Hart Trophies, Art Ross Trophies, Richard Trophies, All-Star selections, Presidents Trophies, etc. However, is A.O. destined to be remembered as "the guy who could not lead his team to the championship" rather than his individual on-ice performance.

Guys like Crosby, Malkin, Toews, and many others are regarded as clutch players, due to the success of the teams they play for, fair or unfair. Will Ovechkin be lumped in with Joe Thornton as being a player that just could not get it done in the playoffs?

Thoughts?

Is Iginla a choker? Sittler? Roenick? Kariya? Bure? Neely? Dionne?

Nope - just unlucky as far as what teams they played on IMO.

P.S. - Thornton has performed just fine in the POs.

[the-rasta-masta]

The guy has 90 points in 97 playoff games. Come on. Can't expect him to do it all.

[Tinordi]

This thread dovetails nicely with the thread comparing the NHL and the NBA. Luck is a cruel mistress. Most fans are loath to admit it but the choker story is is trying to ascribe meaning to random events.

[ToewsFan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Is Iginla a choker? Sittler? Roenick? Kariya? Bure? Neely? Dionne?

Nope - just unlucky as far as what teams they played on IMO.

P.S. - Thornton has performed just fine in the POs.

Iginla: Never played on a team that experts predicted would challenge for the Stanley Cup. Him and Kiprosuff led Calgary to a Stanley Cup Final in 2004 (much better than Ovechkin has ever done). From 2003-04 until 2008-09, the Flames had good teams, but not even close to a Stanley Cup favorite.

Joe Thornton: Has always been underwhelming in the playoffs. After the 2004 loss to Montreal, the city of Boston began wonder why Thornton could never come through in the playoffs. After years of disappointment, he finally helped the Sharks compete for the cup last year, but sadly his career is winding down.

Darryl Sittler: With the exception of the 82-83 season never played on a team that was in contention for the Stanley Cup. With the Flyers, he was already well past his prime, and had to go through the Islanders, when they were nearly at the peak of their dynasty.

Roenick: started his career on a strong Blackhawks club, and did play well on the 1992 club that made it to the Stanley Cup, something that Ovechkin has never done.

Bure: Was the star of the 94' Canucks, and their playoff run. Nearly led the Canucks to a cup win. Other than that, never really played on any notable teams that would have stood out as a cup contender.

kariya; Never played on a cup contender. Helped the Ducks make it to Game 7 of the 2003 final, which is more than Ovechkin has ever done

Dionne: Sadly, he never played on any good teams.

it may be noted that none of the players mentioned had the skillset of Ovechkin in their career.

[ToewsFan]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

The guy has 90 points in 97 playoff games. Come on. Can't expect him to do it all.

OV has never elevated his teammates in the playoffs, even though he is captain and the heart and soul of the Capitals, and the Washington teams he has played for in the last decade have won 3 Presidents Trophies, 7 Division Titles, and have had 6 100+ point seasons.

[ToewsFan]

[QUOTE=fleury;6280039]Interesting and fair question. Hockey is much more of a team sport than a lot of others, so it's hard to see him as a choker. Really, is there any player in hockey whose legacy is a choker? I don't think so. I think it's more of the Caps somehow not being overall willing to play a more grind it out game when needed, but that's just me.

Yashin could be classified as not coming through in the playoffs.

[JohnnyB]

Iginla: Never played on a team that experts predicted would challenge for the Stanley Cup. Him and Kiprosuff led Calgary to a Stanley Cup Final in 2004 (much better than Ovechkin has ever done). From 2003-04 until 2008-09, the Flames had good teams, but not even close to a Stanley Cup favorite.

Iginla played for the Penguins when they were super good.

Anyways, I think it's more significant that Ovechkin has led his team to a decade of being contenders. He will probably be remembered as a choker without a cup though.

[TheFlamesVan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Is Iginla a choker? Sittler? Roenick? Kariya? Bure? Neely? Dionne?

Nope - just unlucky as far as what teams they played on IMO.

P.S. - Thornton has performed just fine in the POs.

Mostly speaking for Iginla, but Ovechkin differs from these examples by the fact they have been a dominate team for a decade. They have won the Presidents Trophy twice and lead the East in the regular season back to back years.

He'll be in that group of Athletes like Marino and Iginla (likely), but is that so bad?

[Azhouse]

Yes.

[kukkudo]

He won't be labelled one come next year when Ovechkin and the Flames hoist the cup.

[TheFlamesVan]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

The guy has 90 points in 97 playoff games. Come on. Can't expect him to do it all.

Not that these are bad numbers, but a good example of how the NHL playoffs nowadays aren't the place for the superstar to put up a ton of points. It's easy to coach your team to watch one guy for 7 games. And when it's a guy like Ovi who scores most of his goals from the offwing circle, he's 'easy' to defend in the playoffs. You make it your soul focus as a team, you watch tape, you shut him down.

This is why depth wins cups.

[MarkGio]

Caps have never been built for the playoffs. They've never had a #1 defenseman, a 1-2 punch down the middle, and much like the Iginla era, they built their team around a dominate winger.

In the playoffs every match up matters​ because you're playing repeat games against a single team. Teams adapt over 4-7 games. When you have holes in your line-up, they get exploited by good teams over a series

[Northendzone]

Crosby - 146 playoff games - 161 pts
Toews - 128 pg - 110 pts
Kane - 127 pg - 123 pts

A regulation time NHL game provides 300 man minutes of total ice time - at most ovie is on for 25 minutes per game - less than 10%(if you look at the ice time this way) of the available ice time. He averages a pt per playoff game, so to me he seems fine.

Seems to me he is more the victim of back luck than him wilting.

For a team to win the cup you need good luck, and skill, and grit, and other intangibles.....it is not like he has had the puck on his stick several times in ot and missed an open net.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Not a choker but a guy who doesn't elevate his entire team.
This is partly due to the position his plays (winger) and partly due to the specific skill that he is elite at (goal scoring).
Centres and D have more opportunity to control the entire play and elevate those around them. Wingers and pure goal scorers are less likely to do that.
Even Brett Hull (one of the greatest snipers of all time) was a more complimentary piece on winning teams as opposed to "the man".

Basically this is why you build up the middle and not around wingers.

[Huntingwhale]

OV will go down as likely the greatest (or top 3) goal scorer of all time given the era he played in. That will be his legacy. Only a moran would consider him a choker, given his personal accomplishments. Call the Capitals' chokers, the TEAM. Call the organization chokers. But the most highly decorated player of this era? Please.

OV might not elevate his team to greater heights. But talk about putting the entire weight of the world on a single player's shoulders. No GM in his right Mind would say ''it's his job to carry the load and make the 22 other players better on any given night''. Yet fans come up with this crazy idea that it's up to certain stars to use their magic powers to make the team better, and if they can't do that, they are no good. Absolute insanity to think that way. And it's only fans who think that. You never hear players, GM, coaches (basically anyone actually involved in the game) state that about any player. That it's their ''job'' to do that.

If someone is going to think that OV is less of a player because his team didn't win the cup and is going to use the that argument against OV, then you have no choice but to use the team argument FOR guys like Maltby and Draper as to why they are better then OV. Go ahead and downplay Ovechkin as a player for not winning the cup. But you sure as hell better be using that same argument to raise up those other guys.

It's actually pretty disappointing to see threads like this trying to downplay a player who will likely never come around again for another generation, because his TEAM didn't take the next step. Instead of criticizing him for his lack of team success, people should savor every single moment he has left in the NHL. His career is already past the halfway point, and yet it feels like yesterday he just entered the league on a tear.

I choose to remember him as a player who got me out of my seat, left my jaw hanging, and completely obliterated goal scoring totals during an era where scoring 35+ makes you elite. 50 years from now as you flip through the NHL history book and come across Ovechkin and think ''gee this guy was a choker'' instead of celebrating his accomplishments for the game, well that makes you a sad person.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Ovechkin will go down as one of the best players of all time and as evidence as to how hard it is to win the Stanley Cup in a 30 team league. There are very few awful teams in the league and the parity as a result of the salary cap has made every single team in the playoffs a chance to win. This isn't the 70s or the 80s in the NHL where there were 3-4 elite teams who always challenged for the cup and 5-10 awful teams who made it into the playoffs because it isn't hard when nearly every team makes it.

[doctajones428]

Ovechkin
Backstrom
Oshie
Kuznetzov
Johanssen
Williams
Alzner
Carlson
Orlov
Shattenkirk
Holtby

Former players:

Semin, Green when they were elite
Laich, Ward, Brouwer in their prime
Neuvirth, Ribeiro and Wideman when they were good
Vokoun

This is a team, that on paper should have made the conference finals every year for a decade and Ovechkin hasn't got them there once. Yes Pittsburgh has eliminated them three of those times, but they have also lost to the Rangers in 3 Game 7's and Tampa/Montreal/Philly once each, teams that weren't exactly powerhouses like them

I would say three of those eliminations were acceptable, but the three first round exits, being swept by Tampa and getting 4 wins in 11 Game 7's is inexcusable

Comparing that to the teams Iginla was on, yes, I would say he's been a known a choker. Ovie/Washington is the Thronton/Sharks and Getzlaf/Ducks of the east

Edit: But I still think he's one of the best of all time and will be in the HoF

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Not a choker but a guy who doesn't elevate his entire team.
This is partly due to the position his plays (winger) and partly due to the specific skill that he is elite at (goal scoring).
Centres and D have more opportunity to control the entire play and elevate those around them. Wingers and pure goal scorers are less likely to do that.
Even Brett Hull (one of the greatest snipers of all time) was a more complimentary piece on winning teams as opposed to "the man".

Basically this is why you build up the middle and not around wingers.

guys like ovechkin and iggy really show there's only so much a guy can do to effect the outcome of hockey games when your job is solely to score goals - and you do. theres too much of the game that they just can't be involved with if they want to score