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Old 05-15-2018, 09:05 AM   #961
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A few years ago, Marvel replaced a lot of it's most prominent characters with female and/or racially diverse versions of these characters (Thor, Iron Man, SpiderMan, etc.). I think this was done because Marvel Studios had tremendous success strip mining the comics for characterizations and stories that have been used in the movies, but the movies had a significantly more diverse audience than these characters were originally intended for and Disney/Marvel were probably hoping that the diversified comics would come up with some good ideas that they could use for the movies. A trend in these comics were heavy handed SJW themes paired with weak characters and stories that turned off existing comic audiences and failed to attract a new one. Comic sales plummeted and Marvel Comics came surprisingly close to failing. Marvel eventually returned to the more familiar characters and that's the last I ever heard about it.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:16 AM   #962
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So here is Diversity and Comics' response to his Bleeding Cool accuser.
again, not gonna change opinions:
NSFW!


Also, here's an article from a news source not having a noted bias:

https://medium.com/@charlesrobertrod...l-3a47b7eb78bc

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This article will focus in particular on their poor responses to fans and critics. Bad PR is one of a myriad of factors that is plagueing the industry, especially when it comes to how they react to one Richard Myer and Ethan Van Sciver.

Lawful Masses youtube for people who aren't going to watch it anyways:
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:24 AM   #963
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I’m still not getting the issue. Guy who criticisizes comics while saying awful #### has his own comic dropped by publisher because he says awful ####.

Is he supposed to be a sympathetic figure?
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:48 AM   #964
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I’m still not getting the issue. Guy who criticisizes comics while saying awful #### has his own comic dropped by publisher because he says awful ####.

Is he supposed to be a sympathetic figure?
I literally knew nothing about this story - at all. I read your post and thought sounds like a dumb story. Sorry to say, the way you characterize it here is incredibly disingenuous.

More like guy has a YouTube channel where he reviews and criticizes comics (seems mostly Marvel). Starts crowd funding to publish his own graphic novel. Gets harassed throughout the process due to his criticisms of Marvel to the point where he gets directly denounced by a Marvel higher up. Publisher who had committed to publishing his graphic nove pulls out due to supposed backlash from Marvel fans and the Marvel exec.

And you’re usually the person who is always deriding others for their posts lacking nuance.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:29 PM   #965
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I literally knew nothing about this story - at all. I read your post and thought sounds like a dumb story. Sorry to say, the way you characterize it here is incredibly disingenuous.

More like guy has a YouTube channel where he reviews and criticizes comics (seems mostly Marvel). Starts crowd funding to publish his own graphic novel. Gets harassed throughout the process due to his criticisms of Marvel to the point where he gets directly denounced by a Marvel higher up. Publisher who had committed to publishing his graphic nove pulls out due to supposed backlash from Marvel fans and the Marvel exec.

And youíre usually the person who is always deriding others for their posts lacking nuance.
I think the full context is important to verify my characterisation. Based on your interpretation, absolutely, that would be disingenuous. But many of his criticisms arenít just about comics, but personal attacks on the people writing them, complete with homophobic, transphobic, and sexist slurs.

I donít know that the core of what heís saying is that valid when a lot of his issues seem to emanate from a hate for the LGBTQ community and women.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:40 PM   #966
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Hot take:

Every comic book writer not named Garth Ennis is 90% likely to be a piece of garbage.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:44 PM   #967
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I think the full context is important to verify my characterisation. Based on your interpretation, absolutely, that would be disingenuous. But many of his criticisms arenít just about comics, but personal attacks on the people writing them, complete with homophobic, transphobic, and sexist slurs.

I donít know that the core of what heís saying is that valid when a lot of his issues seem to emanate from a hate for the LGBTQ community and women.
Has he stated anywhere that he has a hate for the LGBTQ community? And Iím genuinely asking. It seems if you are not on board with certain ideological leanings, you are characterized in very extreme ways. It seems as though If you criticize identity politics, you are hateful of any number of groups.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:51 PM   #968
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The Munk debate on political correctness is coming up on Friday.



Hopefully it won't founder on the shoals of white male privilege and lived experience, and we'll instead get a legitimate intellectual debate.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:55 PM   #969
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Has he stated anywhere that he has a hate for the LGBTQ community? And Iím genuinely asking. It seems if you are not on board with certain ideological leanings, you are characterized in very extreme ways. It seems as though If you criticize identity politics, you are hateful of any number of groups.
No, I donít mean his criticism of identity politics, thatís certainly not a good indicator of hate by any means.

I mean the hateful, homophobic, transphobic, and sexist slurs heís actually used, which were described in the Bleeding Cool article posted by Cliche posted earlier, and which I canít actually repeat due to the swear filter.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:02 PM   #970
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Hopefully it won't founder on the shoals of white male privilege and lived experience, and we'll instead get a legitimate intellectual debate.
Yeah, I really wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

I am a bit surprised that Fry is there. It seems to me like he's really stepped away from the public eye, particularly the public intellectual sort of role especially since he gave up the reins on QI. Which is totally understandable given that he's been battling cancer.

The only time I've seen him in a similar setting was this:
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:12 PM   #971
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Fry has been expressing his ire over political correctness, language policing, and modern threats to the Enlightenment for a while now. He's been interviewed on Dave Rubin, sat down with Steven Pinker on the subject, etc.

Do a youtube search on "Stephen Fry Political Correctness"
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:06 PM   #972
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I'm seeing John Cleese this week, he rails on it as well, should be great to see the old man live.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:17 AM   #973
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How Rhetoric on the Left Fuels Bigotry on the Right

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...The latest example of this dynamic unfolded with these claims from Bari Weiss of The New York Times: “Failing to draw distinctions between people like Sam Harris and people like Richard Spencer strips the designation ‘alt-right’ of its power and meaning,” she wrote on Twitter. “When that label is used promiscuously, people start to take it less seriously … And when conservatives, classical liberals or libertarians are told by the progressive chattering class that they—or those they read—are alt-right, the very common response is to say: ‘Screw it. They think everyone is alt-right.’ And then those people move further right.”..

...At the most general level, it means ceasing to indulge the fantasy that the left can say and do whatever most gratifies its impulses, without any tradeoffs or costs or political consequences, and that anyone who suggests otherwise is just implicitly less committed to fighting racism or sexism or assorted other bigotries, or so dumb that their counsel is better gleefully mocked than grappled with...

...The left should stop promiscuously labeling popular figures as ideologically diverse as Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro as members of the alt-right. Doing so is wrong simply because it is inaccurate. And strategically, if you want the term to retain any stigma, you could hardly do a dumber thing than expanding its scope to inaptly include very popular figures. Their fans will sooner conclude that they cannot trust the mainstream to apply the label, or that it doesn’t mean anything, or that they must be alt-right if it definitionally includes someone who likes Harris or Shapiro, than abandon commentators to whom they’re drawn...

...Claire Lehmann‏ added a useful coda: “If you insult people they become defensive & are more likely to listen to people who don’t insult them. How is this complex? When you collapse the distinction between thoughtful classical liberals & centrists with those who ~openly advocate for a white ethnostate~ not only do you insult your readers, but you reward racists with prestige they don't deserve.”...
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:15 PM   #974
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Sure, and where's the article titled "How Rhetoric on the Right Fuels PC Culture on the Left"?

Why is it the Left always seems to be held to a higher standard than the Right?
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:22 PM   #975
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Sure, and where's the article titled "How Rhetoric on the Right Fuels PC Culture on the Left"?

Why is it the Left always seems to be held to a higher standard than the Right?

The left has assumed moral authority. The religious right had it up until it was revealed that the church had been promoting massive child rape for centuries.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:22 PM   #976
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Well, it depends what you mean by the right. If you mean the never-Trumper right, I disagree with you; I think they're held to a reasonably high standard of common sense, and violations of that standard are rightly criticized. If you mean the Breitbart right, the Trump right, the birther movement and the "Hillary Runs a Sex Trafficking Ring out of a Pizza Parlour" right, then all standards have been abandoned, because they're completely unsalvageable and there's no point in even trying. It would be silly to look at a group of people frothing at the mouth chanting "lock her up" and talking about how Muslims and Jews are ruining and / or secretly controlling society and say, "you guys really need to do better". Constructive criticism implies that amelioration is reasonably possible.

Unfortunately, a significant segment of the left seems to have gone over the other side of that cliff as well at this point.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:35 PM   #977
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Sure, and where's the article titled "How Rhetoric on the Right Fuels PC Culture on the Left"?

Why is it the Left always seems to be held to a higher standard than the Right?
Because the right is rarely introspective. The right does what it does and doesn't give a squirt what anyone thinks or says. When you are focused on the individual, all that matters is your individual take. The left tends to be more introspective, and holds itself to a higher standard, because the left tends to view things through a prism focused on the collective good.

Some of the article is correct. Don't paint everyone with the alt-right brush. Be more accurate. Call them agent provocateurs, bomb throwers, or just #######s, but don't call them alt-right, because it just isn't accurate enough.

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Old 05-17-2018, 02:40 PM   #978
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Do people actually label Sam Harris as alt right? God. Those people would be really dumb.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:45 PM   #979
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The left has assumed moral authority. The religious right had it up until it was revealed that the church had been promoting massive child rape for centuries.
Not sure I agree with that. In recent Western history it is typically the conservative voices that claim to be the voice of morality, law-abiding and righteous: "family values", "God fearing" etc. I find liberals tend to be more focused on issues around social equality and justice. I suppose it depends which type of morality you're looking at: secular or non-secular.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:48 PM   #980
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Because the right is rarely introspective. The right does what it does and doesn't give a squirt what anyone thinks or says. When you are focused on the individual, all that matters is your individual take. The left tends to be more introspective, and holds itself to a higher standard, because the left tends to view things through a prism focused on the collective good.
I don't agree with this. I think the right is introspective as much as the left but they approach problems from a different foundational underpinning. Of course, it's dangerous to generalize and say "the right is this" or "the left is that". These are groups of individuals on both sides of the spectrum and those individuals occupy all parts of the spectrum.
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