High-Profile Sexual Abuse Epidemic

[Canehdianman]

Originally Posted by curves2000

This whole entire situation is getting very interesting very quickly and I really don't know where or when it will stop or correct itself. I will be the first to admit that a huge chunk of these cases and things I have witnessed personally fall into the scumbag category for a lot of these guys. I pride myself on being a gentleman in all ways but some of the stuff I am reading about some of these cases and conversations revolve around some fairly mundane and normal talk. I have heard things such as making a romantic advance, making a comment about one's appearance or even being overheard making a comment to a work colleague or friend is becoming grounds for dismissal.

I just don't know at which point this will end because the truth of the matter every single person in a workplace environment is guilty, end of story and that includes men and women. How far as a society do we want to take this? Let's make sure that we are apply the standards evenly across the board too between men and women, not just the scumbag stuff the guys are doing that wouldn't be tolerated at all.

If the lead female anchor on a national news broadcast is ever caught making any sort of comment or sex joke or reference to someone's appearance or clothing, are we going to demand that they are fired?

Will a hard working female bank executive need to be packaged out to the tune of a few million dollars in severance because some young guy got worked up and offended that she comment on his suit and tie?

At the end of the day if two guys sitting around a workplace lunchroom shooting the breeze and if they are overheard discussing the new "hottie" that was hired, well they are going to need to be fired and than kicked to the curb. The same standard will need to be applied to the ladies of the office as well.

Anybody notice how often Canada's Prime Minister's looks and sexiness is brought up? He seems to relish it to be honest and good on him. How acceptable would it have been for people to gush over the attractive Rona Ambrose who lead the Conservative Party?

Just interesting times! Before anybody roasts me, I am fully aware that a lot of the allegations are BAD, guys exposing themselves, non stop touching of colleagues and other sorts of perverted stuff. I am talking about the stuff that everybody is guilty of like the appearance talk, perhaps making a joke or emailing a joke to someone, asking out a colleague on a date and than finding out it was unwanted and other general workplace issues. Were all vulnerable!!

I'm unclear on your thesis statement.

Are you saying that this might become a slippery slope?....Because it isn't right now.

It seems you are advocating that we stop trying to punish the people doing the 'really bad things', so that Bob and Doug can continue to objectify women in the lunchroom without fear?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I am talking about the stuff that everybody is guilty of like the appearance talk, perhaps making a joke or emailing a joke to someone, asking out a colleague on a date and than finding out it was unwanted and other general workplace issues. Were all vulnerable!!

I have been working in an office environment for the better part of 11 years and I can honestly say that I've never done any of these things, so no, I don't believe I'm vulnerable.

Here's a tip, your office is not your personal social club. When you're at work, keep your libido in check and act like a ####ing professional. This isn't difficult or complex stuff.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

So what's an actual example of someone getting fired or railroaded for something mundane? The examples we've seen have been pretty serious. I don't know if this phenomenon needs to be corrected. I think it needs to expand. The learning has been really great so far.

As I had said in my previous post, this isn't about the serious situations where news anchors are handing out sex toys to colleagues or men in the workplace requesting women watch them shower naked. Just because a lot of the dismissals in the workplace aren't happening in the public eye, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

A former colleague of mine in finance was brought in to help turn things around in a sales department and bring some more professionalism as he has extensive experience. He has a strong background in fashion and was one of the country's top salesman at some of the highest caliber men's clothing stores.

He took it upon himself to have a meeting with all the sales staff about projecting a more professional and successful imagine through the dress code and offered up some tips and suggestions to all the staff members. Well it turns out one of the workers didn't appreciate it and proceeded to make a claim to HR and he was proceeded to be fired with his severance package in hand. From what I have gathered from former colleagues both men and women was that nothing wrong was said at the meeting. It was very much a "let's make sure our neckties are tied properly, our shoes are clean and polished, shirts are tucked and are projecting a polished image" I guess somebody didn't approve of the chat and so somebody lost their job.

I would argue in my opinion that it was absolutely stupid for a man to bring up anything dress code related to any women in the modern day workplace, not because of the content but of the sensitivity attached to the situation. In any event he made his calculation and he lost. End of story on that

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Russic

That's not what's happening though. Nearly every single one of these instances is backed up by multiple victims and what appears to be prior common knowledge. A bad joke or a side comment might draw attention, but nobody is getting their careers burnt to the ground because a single line cross.

As for the Trudeau thing, if you're a woman in politics it's far more likely people will talk about your looks than your policies.

As I had said in my previous post, I am not referring to the serious and scandalous things that involve multiple victims and claims of sexual harassment.

I am referring to what is likely going on in a lot of workplace's in North America right now with regards to what is being said in the news. Ask yourself an honest question, if you were a manager or a business owner and you had a claim from an employee about being offended or subjected to some level of harassment and your investigation came up that it probably might not really warrant any discipline or that the event may not have happened as it was detailed initially etc. Would you go to bat for the employee who had the complaint filed against them? Would you consider yourself an expert in this field? Would you really take the risk that this employee may cause further issues in the future? I suspect you would do exactly what the vast majority of people do and that is follow the letter of the law with regards to compensation in severance and than send that employee packing cause at the end of the day, who need's the headache right?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by curves2000

As I had said in my previous post, this isn't about the serious situations where news anchors are handing out sex toys to colleagues or men in the workplace requesting women watch them shower naked. Just because a lot of the dismissals in the workplace aren't happening in the public eye, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

A former colleague of mine in finance was brought in to help turn things around in a sales department and bring some more professionalism as he has extensive experience. He has a strong background in fashion and was one of the country's top salesman at some of the highest caliber men's clothing stores.

He took it upon himself to have a meeting with all the sales staff about projecting a more professional and successful imagine through the dress code and offered up some tips and suggestions to all the staff members. Well it turns out one of the workers didn't appreciate it and proceeded to make a claim to HR and he was proceeded to be fired with his severance package in hand. From what I have gathered from former colleagues both men and women was that nothing wrong was said at the meeting. It was very much a "let's make sure our neckties are tied properly, our shoes are clean and polished, shirts are tucked and are projecting a polished image" I guess somebody didn't approve of the chat and so somebody lost their job.

I would argue in my opinion that it was absolutely stupid for a man to bring up anything dress code related to any women in the modern day workplace, not because of the content but of the sensitivity attached to the situation. In any event he made his calculation and he lost. End of story on that

Unless you are protected by a "just cause" provision in a collective agreement, your employer is legally entitled to terminate you at any time for absolutely no reason at all (provided it pays you in lieu of reasonable notice. Unfortunately that is just the way it is.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I have been working in an office environment for the better part of 11 years and I can honestly say that I've never done any of these things, so no, I don't believe I'm vulnerable.

Here's a tip, your office is not your personal social club. When you're at work, keep your libido in check and act like a ####ing professional. This isn't difficult or complex stuff.

I have never considered an office environment a social club and although I don't work in an office environment at the moment, I have witnessed unacceptable behavior and language when I was in an office environment and when I was in the restaurant and bar business as well. It is unacceptable but I guess the argument SOME people might have with the way you personally communicate or may have communicated at some point in your 11 years in an office environment would be your use of an obscene English-language word which refers to the act of sexual intercourse.

I do personally think you are onto something here though with regards to tone and getting a point-blank message across to the bozo guys who are creating all this havoc in the first place. A few months ago there was news reports about a veteran female police officer who was forced to quit her job right in front of the police commission in Calgary. She had detailed allegations of other male officers abusing her verbally and sexually by sending text messages of their genitals, using vulgar language etc and it didn't seem like she was getting anywhere with any of her legit complaints about the situation. It was a never-ending battle on her end was what she mentioned to the media.

Everybody in the news media, City council and the Chief of Police etc is all asking the question "how did this happen, how was this not resolved?"

As someone who has a higher ranking member of the force as a sibling, I can tell you probably why it continued and that has to do with lack of tone and bluntness to the offending losers from their superiors. Instead of grabbing these bozo's off the street, sitting them down and talking to them like men and telling them to "knock this ****ing sick perverted stuff off" and to treat their female officers like they would treat their daughters, mothers, and sisters. Sometimes getting your point across with a little bluntness, some anger and a little less regard for somebody's "feelings" can do wonders in the workplace when it comes to this level of harassment. Sending pictures of your **ck to your co-workers needs a little less HR speak and a little more "I shouldn't need to tell you this sh**, its 2017 so wake the **** up and stop it!"

Do you know what the problem with the above is in 2017? In 2017 we got to worry about the offending losers rights, feelings, and reaction to some adult language for fear of them being offended and going to their union and creating a mess. In 2017 no matter what, everybody feelings matter no matter what kind of BS they have been accused of doing. That is the problem these days.

[icecube]

^ If anyone in my profession (teacher) sent an unwanted dick pick to a coworker they would be terminated immediately. There would be no speeches. Just fired. The way it should be.

What the hell is with the police force that they're somehow rarely held accountable for any wrongdoings?

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by icecube

^ If anyone in my profession (teacher) sent an unwanted dick pick to a coworker they would be terminated immediately

Tangent: who thinks those are a good idea?

Is there any woman in the world that thought “ooooh, an unsolicited dick pick. That really does it for me; I’ve completely changed my mind about this fellow”.

Remember the good old days, where we used to all take Polaroids of our dicks and mail them to women we’ve talked to twice?

No. Me neither.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Saw John Oliver was trending and obviously first thought was he's next. But no, he simply showed no mercy to Dustin Hoffman



https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...nt-allegation/

[CaptainCrunch]

Danny Masterson gets tossed off of the ranch.

He's now under investigation by the LA Police. I expect that there will be an army of scientologist lawyers rolling to his aid

http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment...ired-1.4433331

[corporatejay]

I saw the trailer for Molly's game so I did a bit of research. It's based on a memoir and while some of it might be sensationalized, if there was any doubt as to the general attitude towards women in hollywood:

“Hello,” I said, warmly reaching out my hand. “I’m Molly Bloom.” I gave him a genuine smile.

“Hi, gorgeous, I’m Todd—nice to meet you in person.

“Whoa, look at you,” the dealer Diego said. “Your tips are going to be good tonight.”

“Hi, honey,” Bob said now as I took his coat. I saw his eyes flick around the room; even he got a little giddy when he saw that Leo was there. Phillip walked in with his friend Mark. Mark was friends with Pete, a tennis legend, who allegedly played high-stakes poker, too.

“Wow, they are swinging, huh?” he said, looking down at me. “Want to ####?”

I looked back at him, praying my face wasn’t as red as it felt.

“No thanks,” I said as casually as if he had asked me if I wanted a Tic Tac.

“If . . . ” he said. “If you do something to earn these thousand dollars.” His voice was loud enough that some of the guys looked up to see what was happening.

I laughed, trying not to show my nerves.

“What do I want you to do?” he said, as if he were pondering.

The whole table was watching us now.

“I know!” he said. “Get up on that desk and bark like a seal.”

Author’s note: In some places, I’ve changed the names, identities, and other specifics of individuals in order to protect their privacy and integrity. The conversations I re-create come from my clear recollections of them, though they are not written to represent word-for-word transcripts. Instead, I’ve retold them in a way that evokes the real feeling and meaning of what was said.



https://www.vanityfair.com/style/soc...ood-poker-game

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Yeah, definitely changed some names there. I mean, a tennis legend named Pete? Clearly there is no such person.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I have been working in an office environment for the better part of 11 years and I can honestly say that I've never done any of these things, so no, I don't believe I'm vulnerable.

Here's a tip, your office is not your personal social club. When you're at work, keep your libido in check and act like a ####ing professional. This isn't difficult or complex stuff.

I met my wife at work and I don't really understand why that is an issue.

EDIT: to clarify, I don't think asking a coworker out on a date should be considered sexual harassment should it? I am in no way advocating unwanted sexual advances or sending dick pics to coworkers...

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

I met my wife at work and I don't really understand why that is an issue.

EDIT: to clarify, I don't think asking a coworker out on a date should be considered sexual harassment should it? I am in no way advocating unwanted sexual advances or sending dick pics to coworkers...

This is where there's lots of confusion and ambiguity. Some people want work to be a strictly all-business environment. For others, work is their main social outlet, it's where they forge friendships, and sometimes meet sexual partners.

So when men say they're going to keep work strictly professional and not engage socially in mixed company, they come under fire for 'over-reacting':

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle37176443/

Some of these men decided it best to avoid the opposite sex altogether: no boozy holiday parties, no off-site meetings and no mentorship of female colleagues...

"They're not feeling educated on what can and can't be said at this time so they're just withdrawing," said Calgary's Christine Hart, a self-described "gender intelligence expert" who spoke at the Men and Masculinity 2017 Summit, which attracted a co-ed audience of about 100 last month in Toronto.

Hart addressed a "new, shifting dynamic between men and women" in the workplace. In discussions with summit attendees, coaching clients, colleagues and friends, Hart says some men have told her they've grown wary of co-ed, after-work drinks, jokes in the staff room and "compliments," fearing they will be misconstrued. She claims some men are also shying away from mentoring female colleagues because of "the appearance of impropriety."

"That's the word that keeps coming up when I'm asking men … 'fear' that they're well-intentioned but that they might mess up," Hart said. "Everyone is a little freaked out at the moment."

...Some critics believe this new-found confusion amounts to a cop-out. Sexual-harassment codes have been on the books for decades now. These are hardly new social norms. Men who complain that workplace standards have become unreasonable lately sound out of touch or like they've got something to hide.

Dismissing the wariness of men is disingenuous. In an ideal world, there would never be any ambiguity about the intent of jokes or flirtation. We don't live in an ideal world.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Some critics believe this new-found confusion amounts to a cop-out (...) Men who complain that workplace standards have become unreasonable lately sound out of touch or like they've got something to hide.

I love this quote. "Your worries are ridiculous! What sort of person would worry about being perceived as guilty despite having good intentions? You're clearly secretly guilty!"

[Coach]

^^ I'm definitely feeling what's being mentioned in that article, not as a workplace thing, but just overall. I've talked to quite a few female friends about it. Trying to navigate the nuance has been messing with my head to the point that I'm way overthinking everything and it just becomes a deeper and deeper hold of self-doubt and second guessing.

"Oh hey, this girls really cute. Okay don't say anything weird. Why would you say something weird? Do you usually say weird things? Are some girls walking away from conversations with you thinking you're a creep? Oh yeah, there's a girl in front of me. Okay don't look anywhere but her eyeballs. If you glance away she'll think you're not paying attention, or worse that you're looking at another person. If you glance down she'll think you're looking at her chest, even though you just like the color of her sweater. Oh #### now you looked. And now she thinks your creepily scanning her body. Are you creepily scanning her body? Annnnd she's gone because you haven't said anything in 40 seconds."

All of these things equal not really being able to pay attention to the actual person and deal with them naturally. Let my eyes move as they would normally, say the things I would normally say, etc... It's like someone put a new filter in your head and your not sure what should be getting through anymore. I consider myself someone who was and is very respectful of women. Has that made me immune from saying something stupid once in a while? Definitely not. But the thought that I might be getting perceived that way (true or not) is enough to make me avoid approaching with women, and particularly avoid approaching those I don't already know.

My whole thought process now is to avoid ANY sort of first move. Women I know think that's ridiculous but what else is there to do? If the first move is going to be considered creepy AT BEST even some of the time, then why would I be doing that? I tell them they're going to have be the ones who assert themselves more as men become more and more reserved out of fear of coming across inappropriate. I'm not saying these are bad things, just shifts we have to adjust to and that does include women.

EDIT* Not to get too personal/graphic, but it boils over into sex to IMO. In my personal experience, the majority of women like at least a little bit of "domination" (for lack of a better term). Words like "harder" and "pound" are regularly used. Some spanking is usually present. Even most popular sexual positions kind revolve around one person dominating the other (usually the male). So even stuff like that is throwing me for a loop. It starts to seep into my head that the whole act of sex is "bad" or that I'm somehow "doing this too them" instead of us having mutual relations. Do I ask permission before giving a small spank? Can heterosexual women in here honestly say they would find it sexy if a man kept asking permission to do things to them in the bedroom?

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

I met my wife at work and I don't really understand why that is an issue.

EDIT: to clarify, I don't think asking a coworker out on a date should be considered sexual harassment should it? I am in no way advocating unwanted sexual advances or sending dick pics to coworkers...

But did you simply walk up to her and ask her out on a date out of nowhere after only having a professional relationship?

Or were there functions or after work get togethers where you got to know her and decided to ask?

The two scenarios are quite different. The former could easily be seen as being inappropriate (IMO it is) and the latter not really.

The first may not be harassment if it's a one time thing. It's different if it's the person that asks every woman on the floor out or repeatedly asks the same woman. A pattern, I think, matters a lot in such a case.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Danny Masterson gets tossed off of the ranch.

He's now under investigation by the LA Police. I expect that there will be an army of scientologist lawyers rolling to his aid

http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment...ired-1.4433331

Thats probably a good call on Netflix's part, but nothing to do with anything else, it will be interesting to see how they write him off. Hopefully its something awesome like being run over by a cow or gored by a bull, or getting caught in a piece of farm machinery or something.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Locke

Thats probably a good call on Netflix's part, but nothing to do with anything else, it will be interesting to see how they write him off. Hopefully its something awesome like being run over by a cow or gored by a bull, or getting caught in a piece of farm machinery or something.

Let's hope for a poetic death like being crushed to death by a giant globe that rolls down a hill. Bonus: The globe falls off a truck bound for Hollywood.

[TheFlamesVan]

Originally Posted by Locke

Thats probably a good call on Netflix's part, but nothing to do with anything else, it will be interesting to see how they write him off. Hopefully its something awesome like being run over by a cow or gored by a bull, or getting caught in a piece of farm machinery or something.

Abducted by aliens.