Brad Treliving needs to go

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There’s a vast gulf between “didn’t get desired results” and incompetence. Incompetent means - mentally or physically incapable of doing the job properly.

You say the Flames are a mediocre team. That by definition means he’s not incompetent - he’s just not exceptional.

The team is bad on pace for what would be the equivalent of a 77 point season in a normal year. We've been on pace to hit 96 once in the last four seasons. No cap space, bad prospect pool, no extra draft picks, so the team is likely to trend down.

Mediocre is inaccurate.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by TOfan

If he did say this, I must have missed it. Personally I would be surprised. Basically, ‘Markstrom’s good, but the rest of you kind of suck’. He came out of retirement for that?!?

He said it during the first interview with the press from his home. He didn't specifically say Markstrom but it was mentioned about how they had talked before but never came to an agreement. When asked why now and not then he mentioned that they now have the pieces that excite him.

Since getting a starting goalie was the position they focused on the most it's not far off to suggest he probably felt Rittich and Talbot/another 1a/b wasn't going to be enough to bring him back.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Itse

The team is bad on pace for what would be the equivalent of a 77 point season in a normal year. We've been on pace to hit 96 once in the last four seasons. No cap space, bad prospect pool, no extra draft picks, so the team is likely to trend down.

Mediocre is inaccurate.

All the same. Half the teams make the POs, half don’t. He’s made the POs about half the time.

Incompetent is not knowing how the CBA works. It’s missing deadlines, incurring penalties, etc. Stuff you could be fired for without compensation.

It’s semantics, and doesn’t affect the end result of fired or not. But I just feel like people are overstating it.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by flambers

Monahan is not the player I would have targeted to be moved.

Johnny is the 1st one to go.

GM has done very little to improve the forwards for awhile now....

Good idea, remove your team’s most dynamic offensive game breaker. The Flames can go from scoring 1 to 2 goals per game to 0 to 1.

I’m honestly surprised anyone still has this notion in their mind. As soon Gaudreau and Monahan were split up, Gaudreau has blossomed which I always suspected. Monahan on the otherhand has folded like a cheap tent. He’s got what, like 2 goals in his last 17 games or something? 1 empty netter and 1 nice finish from the slot that was assisted by his old pal Johnny Gaudreau? Face it, #23 has been a ghost in the team’s most important stretch of the season.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

All the same. Half the teams make the POs, half don’t. He’s made the POs about half the time.

Incompetent is not knowing how the CBA works. It’s missing deadlines, incurring penalties, etc. Stuff you could be fired for without compensation.

It’s semantics, and doesn’t affect the end result of fired or not. But I just feel like people are overstating it.

And over 7 years you should make the second round twice and the third round once based on averages. You should have a 50 percent chance of making the finals. He is not quite hitting those numbers.

Incompetence could be selling two first round picks and five second round picks in 24 months in the first 3-5 years of a rebuild. Not sure that rises to incompetence, but it is a different approach, one not taken by any other NHL team to the best of my knowledge in the cap era.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jacks

[ ] Feasters fault
[ ] Burkes fault
[ ] Owners fault
[x] Trelivings fault


One of the above has been the GM for 7 years. Let's stop making excuses.

One of the above has been the constant in 25 years of mediocrity.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

And over 7 years you should make the second round twice and the third round once based on averages. You should have a 50 percent chance of making the finals. He is not quite hitting those numbers.

Incompetence could be selling two first round picks and five second round picks in 24 months in the first 3-5 years of a rebuild. Not sure that rises to incompetence, but it is a different approach, one not taken by any other NHL team to the best of my knowledge in the cap era.

Your math is off, and so is your definition of incompetence. You are also ignoring the picks acquired. He is just about even on second rounders, in fact.

You needn’t overstate your case to say you think he hasn’t accomplished enough to keep his job. Of course, the owners may decide they gave him a certain length of time and that’s what he’s going to get.

[madmike]

Mediocre sucks. If the team is worse than mediocre, which is where they’re trending, that’s not a bad thing.

They need to rebuild and they need high picks. Ownership is too stubborn to embrace the tank, but they’re on the road there anyway.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Good idea, remove your team’s most dynamic offensive game breaker. The Flames can go from scoring 1 to 2 goals per game to 0 to 1.

I’m honestly surprised anyone still has this notion in their mind. As soon Gaudreau and Monahan were split up, Gaudreau has blossomed which I always suspected. Monahan on the otherhand has folded like a cheap tent. He’s got what, like 2 goals in his last 17 games or something? 1 empty netter and 1 nice finish from the slot that was assisted by his old pal Johnny Gaudreau? Face it, #23 has been a ghost in the team’s most important stretch of the season.

Just fir accuracy: In March and April Monahan has 6 goals and 13 points (his 2 goal game against Mtl was outside your 17 game period though). Since the split (which I think was the 5-0 win against Montreal, so 10 games) he has 3 goals and 5 points. Gaudreau has 5 goals and 12 points. In fairness, Gaudreau got the better end of the new linemate sweepstakes - Lindholm and Tkachuk versus Mangiapane and Ritchie (and Dube for a couple games).

Both of them benefited from an advanced stats perspective.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

All the same. Half the teams make the POs, half don’t. He’s made the POs about half the time.

Incompetent is not knowing how the CBA works. It’s missing deadlines, incurring penalties, etc. Stuff you could be fired for without compensation.

It’s semantics, and doesn’t affect the end result of fired or not. But I just feel like people are overstating it.

While I sympathize with the semantic nitpick, I also think it's somewhat meaningless to say that half the teams make the playoffs, because not all teams are competing to make the playoffs every season.

This season for example there were only 6 teams competing for four spots, while Ottawa was pretty happy with it's participation trophy. I would argue that this is actually pretty typical. Every season there's 1-2 teams in each conference that are just aiming for last and 1-2 others in various rebuild or retool situations, so if you're not rebuilding or retooling you probably have something closer to a 2 out of 3 chance.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Itse

While I sympathize with the semantic nitpick, I also think it's somewhat meaningless to say that half the teams make the playoffs, because not all teams are competing to make the playoffs every season.

This season for example there were only 6 teams competing for four spots, while Ottawa was pretty happy with it's participation trophy. I would argue that this is actually pretty typical. Every season there's 1-2 teams in each conference that are just aiming for last and 1-2 others in various rebuild or retool situations, so if you're not rebuilding or retooling you probably have something closer to a 2 out of 3 chance.

Fair enough. I think it’s easiest to say he’s had a while to build a contender and hasn’t done it. I suppose he’d argue his window is 2 more years and that’s what he sold the owners.

The one thing that might work against him is IIRC his last extension was pretty late in coming - they didn’t seem 100% confident. Maybe that was because there were other options that aren’t around now.

I suspect he keeps his job through next year, just because the transition is too hard to do this year. There are some good candidates out there, both experienced and not so much. But it’s a hard climate in which to make that change.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There’s a vast gulf between “didn’t get desired results” and incompetence. Incompetent means - mentally or physically incapable of doing the job properly.



You say the Flames are a mediocre team. That by definition means he’s not incompetent - he’s just not exceptional.

It's professional sports... he's an abject failure considering how he started a rebuild with assets he did and where he took them over a 7 year period (not even getting into the debate over BT starting with nothing, total malarkey).

Being where we are right now is incompetence imo. If you want to split hairs, fine. Let me put it this way... imo he's a bottom 5 GM. He made 2 decent trades involving the same player in 7 years, is garbage in UFA and doesn't know how to hire a decent coach to save his life, which hurts the development of the good assets he does have. Only positive I can see is he lets his scouts scout and doesn't get in their way. Probably a good thing because he has no ability to evaluate hockey talent whatsoever. Even then the prospect pool is crap because he trades so many picks away for turd players.

Basically he's a smooth talking empty suit who is really good at fooling people by saying what they want to hear and inventing buzzwords to make himself look like he's on the right path. It's all part of the process after all, right?

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[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by TheChief

Brad has had his run in the sun, for 7 years. Outside the one western conference regular season winning season this team hasn't improved. Its time for a change and everyone knows it.

This. One outlier season to show for 7 years of work. How anyone can want him around is beyond me. I guess he was voted #2 gm in franchise history here though which is bewildering and explains alot

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[jayswin]

Originally Posted by transplant99

People still think Treliving is getting canned this year eh?

Highly unlikely.

Didn't you say the same thing about Ward?

[TheoFleury]

He built a small, slow, untalented group that is the antithesis of what it takes to be successful in today's NHL. And he started with zero expectations and a decent asset base (JG, SM, SB, MG, TB, MF and a couple other) He didn't really add to it in a way a good GM would. In fact he's sat and watched the team go backward as the values of all his assets declined. Anyone who thinks this is what a good GM is, is either trolling or confused to what the goal of a professional sports team is

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[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

He built a small, slow, untalented group that is the antithesis of what it takes to be successful in today's NHL. And he started with zero expectations and a decent asset base (JG, SM, SB, MG, TB, MF and a couple other) He didn't really add to it in a way a good GM would. In fact he's sat and watched the team go backward as the values of all his assets declined. Anyone who thinks this is what a good GM is, is either trolling or confused to what the goal of a professional sports team is

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I've posted this before as he did not have a good asset base to work with. He had some good young players but a horrible roster with massive holes to fill and a terrible prospect base. Here's how it breaks down:


The roster consisted of
- leading scorer Jiri Hudler (54 points - one of the lowest top scorers in the league)
- the second leading scorer was Giordano with 47 points
- The top goal scorer was Mike Cammalleri (26 goals) who was now a free agent and walked
- Other key forwards were Mikael Backlund, Sean Monahan, Matt Stajan, Joe Colborne and Curtis Glencross. You also had the likes of Stempniak, Byron, Jones, and Galiardi. Of the entire forward group only Backlund and Monahan were "pre-apex" though Hudler would go on to have an unreal year (his last good one).
- The D consisted of Gio, Brodie, Russell, Wideman, and Chris Butler
- There was no #1 goalie (Ramo, Ortio, MacDonald, Berra)

So let's agree the big league roster wasn't good.

This is the top 10 prospects in the organization as of spring 2014, according to The Hockey Writers.
1. Johnny
2. Emile Poirier
3. Sven
4. Markus Granlund
5. Bill Arnold
6. Morgan Klimchuk
7. Corban Knight
8. Kenny Agostino
9. John Gillies
10. Joni Ortio

Of the group only one turned into a star, and two more turned into below average NHLers (Sven and Granlund) who are now both out of the league.. The rest - nothing there.

So you had a crappy NHL team and a crappy prospect base, except Johnny.
Tree also had a top 5 pick in that draft - used for Sam.. He had two 2nds wasted on Mason Macdonald and Hunter Smith. According to most - Tree had very little, if any say in that draft. It was handled by Burke.

So that's what he had to work with. Pretty poor. Largely because the previous regime got NOTHING out of the core of Iginla, Regehr, Bouwmeester, Langkow, and Kipper.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

He built a small, slow, untalented group that is the antithesis of what it takes to be successful in today's NHL. And he started with zero expectations and a decent asset base (JG, SM, SB, MG, TB, MF and a couple other) He didn't really add to it in a way a good GM would. In fact he's sat and watched the team go backward as the values of all his assets declined. Anyone who thinks this is what a good GM is, is either trolling or confused to what the goal of a professional sports team is

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Dougie Hamilton. He did the exact thing you said he didn’t.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Inferno

He said it during the first interview with the press from his home. He didn't specifically say Markstrom but it was mentioned about how they had talked before but never came to an agreement. When asked why now and not then he mentioned that they now have the pieces that excite him.

Since getting a starting goalie was the position they focused on the most it's not far off to suggest he probably felt Rittich and Talbot/another 1a/b wasn't going to be enough to bring him back.

The way I recall this is Sutter said the Flames have the pieces to be successful. To me, he’s probably alluding to quite a few players. Splitting hairs, but I what I took from that is he sees the bones of a roster in place to contend. Markstrom is of course a part of that, but he’s certainly not the only one.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by TOfan

The way I recall this is Sutter said the Flames have the pieces to be successful. To me, he’s probably alluding to quite a few players. Splitting hairs, but I what I took from that is he sees the bones of a roster in place to contend. Markstrom is of course a part of that, but he’s certainly not the only one.

Yes, I know he's talking about more than one player. What I'm suggesting is that Markstrom was that last piece to convince him.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I've posted this before as he did not have a good asset base to work with. He had some good young players but a horrible roster with massive holes to fill and a terrible prospect base. Here's how it breaks down:





The roster consisted of

- leading scorer Jiri Hudler (54 points - one of the lowest top scorers in the league)

- the second leading scorer was Giordano with 47 points

- The top goal scorer was Mike Cammalleri (26 goals) who was now a free agent and walked

- Other key forwards were Mikael Backlund, Sean Monahan, Matt Stajan, Joe Colborne and Curtis Glencross. You also had the likes of Stempniak, Byron, Jones, and Galiardi. Of the entire forward group only Backlund and Monahan were "pre-apex" though Hudler would go on to have an unreal year (his last good one).

- The D consisted of Gio, Brodie, Russell, Wideman, and Chris Butler

- There was no #1 goalie (Ramo, Ortio, MacDonald, Berra)



So let's agree the big league roster wasn't good.



This is the top 10 prospects in the organization as of spring 2014, according to The Hockey Writers.

1. Johnny

2. Emile Poirier

3. Sven

4. Markus Granlund

5. Bill Arnold

6. Morgan Klimchuk

7. Corban Knight

8. Kenny Agostino

9. John Gillies

10. Joni Ortio



Of the group only one turned into a star, and two more turned into below average NHLers (Sven and Granlund) who are now both out of the league.. The rest - nothing there.



So you had a crappy NHL team and a crappy prospect base, except Johnny.

Tree also had a top 5 pick in that draft - used for Sam.. He had two 2nds wasted on Mason Macdonald and Hunter Smith. According to most - Tree had very little, if any say in that draft. It was handled by Burke.



So that's what he had to work with. Pretty poor. Largely because the previous regime got NOTHING out of the core of Iginla, Regehr, Bouwmeester, Langkow, and Kipper.

Its almost like it was a total rebuild. One that started with total buy in from the fans, media and owners. One that he had time to get right... even if he did start with nothing, which wasn't the case. I listed the assets he started with, they are/were good players. Look around the league for true empty cupboard rebuilds throughout history. This was not the case in Calgary. If you think that it was that terrible, it's your opinion, one I do not share. A true terrible roster and prospect base would've led to multiple last place finishes. Brad started on second base in a rebuild imo and has no idea whatsoever how to advance the runner. He knew it wasn't terrible hence why he tried to accelerate it. It's just he's a bad GM and made all the wrong decisions in trying to do that.

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