Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by pylon

I don't agree with the Flames proposal, but Nenshi's ego and horrible tact from day one is why we are here. You think a guy like Murray Edwards is going to let Nenshi push him around and berate his corporation in public?

I'm not exactly a fan of Nenshi's. As someone upthread said, I usually like his policies but I dislike his attitude delivering them. However, he's our elected mayor and he's fighting the corner of the city and its taxpayers.

Murray Edwards, on the other hand, is a big-dog billionaire who has a kind of pathological need to win every deal, every negotiation, in order to make his inexhaustible pile of money just a little bit bigger. I have no reason to respect or admire him. He's not fighting my corner, he's fighting his own corner. Few things would make me happier as a fan than Edwards selling his share in the team and going away to England for good.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I'd like to understand why you've gone from being on record as being comfortable with a $150 million City contribution and now you're saying it's a fair deal for the City to fund roughly twice that?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Because he doesn't live in Calgary, and it wouldn't affect him one nickel.

[Ice_Weasel]

Originally Posted by stone hands

Sure, it's only $10 bucks a month for me, but it's 275M dollars of public money no longer available to be allocated to public spending on things like roads and infrastructure and basically anything else that anyone can use and don't have to pay for entry at(generally), all so that the Calgary flames can sell more luxury suites

No thanks

Right. Because the City only has $275m left and if they spend it on an Arena there is 0 left for anything else.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by RM14

what is it, like $10 per taxpayer? And you feel bent over?

I'm genuinely curious how you arrived at such a figure.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I've done some quick looking around and although not very common, it seems to me that the city could build a more than suitable venue for concerts and special events that holds around 12,000 people for less than $200,000 and they would get all the proceeds from those events. You could probably do it for a lot less.

My crappy condo in Windsor Park can hold 12,000 people?

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by pylon

My crappy condo in Windsor Park can hold 12,000 people?

fixed.

[Jason14h]

At the end of the day we will win the battle against the owners and lose the war (No Team)

I don't actually think the owners will move, mostly because with so many they will never agree to it!

But it amazes me that people would be happy with them leaving to 'stick it to the billionaire owners'

If people don't believe the Flames add a ton of economic stimulus to the city I don't know what to say.

Just the players salaries generates how much in income taxes and purchasing power for local businesses.

Both sides are a joke, and the fans will be the only losers in this battle.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by pylon

My crappy condo in Windsor Park can hold 12,000 people?

I have no idea where he got 200k from but you could save a substantial amount of cash on a venue not being hamstrung by the moving goalposts of living up to NHL facility standards.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Ice_Weasel

Right. Because the City only has $275m left and if they spend it on an Arena there is 0 left for anything else.

Never said anything of the sort. I'm just pointing out that money doesn't grow on trees and trying to rationalize spending 275 million dollars in terms of monthly payments is probably why most of North America is piss broke

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

I'm genuinely curious how you arrived at such a figure.

120 million divided by 1.2 million population.

Duh.




Apparently there are no corporations paying taxes in the city that may carry a higher burden. But let's do #mathbykenking and prove a point, as if it's just that easy.

[Tyler]

End of the day, I think we go for the 2026 Olympics and the feds swoop in to fill the funding gap and we get a new arena.

We look back and laugh at all the 2017 drama with fondness.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by RM14

what is it, like $10 per taxpayer? And you feel bent over?

About $585 per household.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

At the end of the day we will win the battle against the owners and lose the war (No Team)

I don't actually think the owners will move, mostly because with so many they will never agree to it!

But it amazes me that people would be happy with them leaving to 'stick it to the billionaire owners'

If people don't believe the Flames add a ton of economic stimulus to the city I don't know what to say.

Just the players salaries generates how much in income taxes and purchasing power for local businesses.

Both sides are a joke, and the fans will be the only losers in this battle.

It would be interesting to know whether there is any disagreement among the ownership group. I suspect they are all on the same page on the issue.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by 420since1974

Nenshi is campaigning in part on an entertainment district which includes a new arena.
If the City has to build it on their own dime, it'll cost taxpayers much more than if they have an anchor tenant like the Flames to partner with.

I'm reasonably sure that both sides are hoping that Calgary wins an Olympic bid, so that the Province of Alberta and the Federal Government of Canada would pay for approximately 2/3 of the project.

I believe that the Flames will stay in the Saddledome until it becomes cost prohibitive for them. We'll see the true beginning of the end when they stop spending to the Cap. The team will become less competitive, attendance will drop, then they'll just move to a city that wants a NHL team more than Calgary.

Yeah, Nenshi campaigning on the entertainment district with the new arena was in poor taste (the Flames response has definitely been less than ideal though). It's fairly disingenuous to include it in his campaign without any real progress in negotiations. If there had been progress in negotiations, then maybe...but hey, he's campaigning on it, so it must be entirely publicly funded, right? Or at the very least he's secured some sort of partnership or some sort of funding plan...right?

I think your final paragraph is exactly what the Flames are doing. There will come a day when the Saddledome can't continue on. Who knows the time-frame, but it will happen - at which point funds will be re-directed away from things like salaries for players/management etc., the on-ice product will suffer and then we'll see public interest rot and the appetite for relocation will fester.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

About $585 per household.

Exactly. And right there is what bothers me.

Can anyone sit here with a straight face and tell me it's worth it? It's better we have an arena than say a hospital, schools, roads, etc?

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by pylon

Most people do realise that. But Nenshi came across as a smug little twerp from day one. Regardless of how utterly awesome Nenshi thinks he is (just ask him and I'm sure he'll tell you), he's the face of the city in a negotiation with people that pay more tax in a year, than Nenshi makes in a term. I don't know if it's typical small man syndrome, but Nenshi seems to like to antagonise people and companies that are far more successful, and frankly way above his 'pay grade' of success. Wenzel, UBER, The Flames, and I'm sure I'm missing others.

Again, this mans legacy is now going to be one the likes Peter Pocklington. A hero at first, but the ultimate villain in the end. I don't agree with the Flames proposal, but Nenshi's ego and horrible tact from day one is why we are here. You think a guy like Murray Edwards is going to let Nenshi push him around and berate his corporation in public?

Is this a serious post? What does his salary have to do with this?

We all know everything about you and we didn't even have to ask. We know how much you make and all the cars and disposable income you have and Nenshi Is the one with an ego?

This is a really embrassing post.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I'd like to understand why you've gone from being on record as being comfortable with a $150 million City contribution and now you're saying it's a fair deal for the City to fund roughly twice that?

Yup, I said I would support a rule of thirds model. Not specific dollars, just the model. This is also a viable model, based on one implemented up the road. There are various models that could work. In relation to the poll you posted, I picked that particular option. Doesn't mean its the only option I think can work. I guess that's what makes me different? I'm not completely sold on any single solution for anything. There are many ways to skin the same cat. I wish more people would look at the issue that way.

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Because he doesn't live in Calgary, and it wouldn't affect him one nickel.

Say, did your taxes pay for the Saddledome? Did your taxes pay for the renovation? Mine did, and I don't get any value out of those dollars spent. So please, STFU about not living in Calgary nor having the outcome of this affecting me. The majority of the infrastructure you use, and that education you're claiming to have, was paid for by my taxes that I contributed for over 35 years. Just because someone moved away from Calgary does not mean they no long have, nor never had, an investment in the city, nor interest in the direction it takes.

Signed - a second tier fan

[CampbellsTransgressions]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

At the end of the day we will win the battle against the owners and lose the war (No Team)

I don't actually think the owners will move, mostly because with so many they will never agree to it!

But it amazes me that people would be happy with them leaving to 'stick it to the billionaire owners'

If people don't believe the Flames add a ton of economic stimulus to the city I don't know what to say.

Just the players salaries generates how much in income taxes and purchasing power for local businesses.

Both sides are a joke, and the fans will be the only losers in this battle.

Remind me how the salaries are paid and which teams receive money as a part of revenue sharing.

Anyway, I'd much rather we offer Amazon 700 million dollars.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by pylon

he's the face of the city in a negotiation with people that pay more tax in a year, than Nenshi makes in a term. I don't know if it's typical small man syndrome, but Nenshi seems to like to antagonise people and companies that are far more successful, and frankly way above his 'pay grade' of success. Wenzel, UBER, The Flames, and I'm sure I'm missing others.

1. Just because someone makes a lot of money in one industry, does not make them an expert in another. Nor does it make them some sort of deity whose altar we should grovel at.

2. When it comes to city planning, it's Nenshi that is the expert at the table. I mean the man has a degree from frickin' Harvard on the subject. Unless there's some sort of mad genius strategy that involves sending out a bumbling boob to speak for you, the Flames seem wildly out of their element.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Is this a serious post? What does his salary have to do with this?

We all know everything about you and we didn't even have to ask. We know how much you make and all the cars and disposable income you have and Nenshi Is the one with an ego?

This is a really embrassing post.

Find one post where I have disclosed my income on this site.

And posting about cars I own in an automotive discussion thread is an ego thing?

OK champ.