unethical business experience *LONG READ*

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

Excuse me? They phoned me at home out of the blue and yelled, swore and threatened me, do you not consider a review that lists the good and the bad fair? I wanted my review to be transparent and I made sure to compliment them for their quick fixes and they cleaned pretty good.

How tf did I attack them? Being honest is an attack?
The owner is lucky I didn't press charges and the consumer protection act says they broke a law and the punishment is heavy fines. You're way off.

You're publicly attacking me in this thread.

Did you even read their reviews?

I'm just going to put you on ignore, enjoy licking the boots of business owners.

I wouldn't call you to yell and swear because that's counter productive to protecting my business, but I would certainly want to. You don't think a 3-star review is an attack. It is in the mind of a business owner. If you don't believe me, ask literally any business owner if a three star is a net positive or a net negative for your business. Without exception - and as supported by every business owner in this thread - it is a net negative. I interpret negative reviews as attacks and so do other business owners.

His call may have caught you off guard, but I'm trying to get through to you the reason he was mad is because he viewed it as an attack because - in the sense that you harmed his business - it was.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

Sliver should share his business name so we can see all bogus reviews since he essentially claimed that every negative post is a lie, but that's his side of the story, i'd like to hear the customers have to say first.

lol, I used to give out my name and discounts to CPers until somebody left me a fataing one-star review and said something to the effect of, 'don't shop here...the owner hates dogs.'

People absolutely weaponize reviews. It's just an awful system top to bottom that, again, profits big tech companies, victimizes business owners and uses consumers to do the dirty work without any means for a business to defend themselves or opt out of the system.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I wouldn't call you to yell and swear because that's counter productive to protecting my business, but I would certainly want to. You don't think a 3-star review is an attack. It is in the mind of a business owner. If you don't believe me, ask literally any business owner if a three star is a net positive or a net negative for your business. Without exception - and as supported by every business owner in this thread - it is a net negative. I interpret negative reviews as attacks and so do other business owners.

His call may have caught you off guard, but I'm trying to get through to you the reason he was mad is because he viewed it as an attack because - in the sense that you harmed his business - it was.

Man, I'm a business owner and though I don't receive reviews, I'm really doing my best to put myself in your shoes.

Where it falls apart for me comes down to the fact that the business owner in FG's case didn't deliver the goods. He provided a ####ty service and a ####ty product and a ####ty experience and then (seemingly) tried to wash his hands of it. A good business owner, even on an off day, would recognize these shortcomings and proactively seek a solution for their customer. Instead, FG got the runaround for 10 months, posted a (in my view) still generous 3-star rating, only to face intimidation from the business owner.

I know there are a lot of ####ers out there and I feel for the business owners that have to deal with inaccurate and vindictive reviews, but - just as several posters have said they do with online reviews - you need to look at the context on a case-by-case basis. And in this case, the bottom line is that if the hot tub seller met even basic expectations (customer pays for something and it - shock - works as expected), they could have avoided this whole situation... just by doing their job.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I wouldn't call you to yell and swear because that's counter productive to protecting my business, but I would certainly want to. You don't think a 3-star review is an attack. It is in the mind of a business owner. If you don't believe me, ask literally any business owner if a three star is a net positive or a net negative for your business. Without exception - and as supported by every business owner in this thread - it is a net negative. I interpret negative reviews as attacks and so do other business owners.

His call may have caught you off guard, but I'm trying to get through to you the reason he was mad is because he viewed it as an attack because - in the sense that you harmed his business - it was.

Do a better job if you don't want to get a 3 star view. You always are the victim in so many of these debates. It's always someone else at fault, never you. Blame the customer, blame the system.... Never your fault I guess.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by you&me

Man, I'm a business owner and though I don't receive reviews, I'm really doing my best to put myself in your shoes.

Where it falls apart for me comes down to the fact that the business owner in FG's case didn't deliver the goods. He provided a ####ty service and a ####ty product and a ####ty experience and then (seemingly) tried to wash his hands of it. A good business owner, even on an off day, would recognize these shortcomings and proactively seek a solution for their customer. Instead, FG got the runaround for 10 months, posted a (in my view) still generous 3-star rating, only to face intimidation from the business owner.

I know there are a lot of ####ers out there and I feel for the business owners that have to deal with inaccurate and vindictive reviews, but - just as several posters have said they do with online reviews - you need to look at the context on a case-by-case basis. And in this case, the bottom line is that if the hot tub seller met even basic expectations (customer pays for something and it - shock - works as expected), they could have avoided this whole situation... just by doing their job.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Couple things. There is fg's story, of course, but the conversation has largely been about reviews in general for several pages so everything I've said doesn't tie back directly to this specific case.

Also, we still have only heard from FG. Maybe three stars is fair and maybe it's not. Not a single one of us here knows that without knowing the other side to this story.

Say three stars is fair or even generous...it still didn't obligate him to write the review. And maybe it's something other people who leave 1-4 star reviews would want to know - they are perceived by the people receiving them as an affront/insult/assault.

I understand FG didn't intend his review to be an assault, but every business owner would view that review as damaging to his/her business and of course there is going to be a range of responses by different personalities to assaults and threats to livliehoods.

The proof is in the pudding here. How I am saying negative reviews are perceived by business owners is exactly how this business owner perceived fg's negative review.

Really, there is a disconnect between the intent of his review and how it was perceived when received. Publicly shaming somebody - that's what a negative review does - will sometimes result in a spirited defense from the shamee.

I am bothered FG is upset, so I apologize to him for exacerbating his stressful situation, but I'll tell you guys, how he is feeling by being attacked sounds very similar to the feeling a business owner feels when attacked via a negative review.

[Ped]

Business are free to view a 3-star or lower review as an "attack' on their business, but some business have to do a better job of not inviting attacks.


Case in point: I ordered something from a company back in October, for Christmas. I received an email telling me that items usually ship within 3 business days, and I would receive another email with tracking once it shipped.


After 10 business days, I emailed them to ask them if they had any information about when it would actually ship; I stated that I understood that COVID and staff shortages and shipping issues world-wide are causing delays, but was just looking for a general target date. I also suggested that maybe if they are having issues, don't email your customers that they usually ship within 3 business days.



I got a reply that my order was ready, was sitting in the warehouse waiting to get picked up, and they had no idea when that would be.


It's now December and still nothing. I got an email in November asking how I liked the product I had ordered, and I hadn't even gotten it. There was an option to tell them that I hadn't gotten it yet, so I clicked that and left it, assuming it was an automatic email sent after a certain amount of time.


By last week, I had gotten 3 more emails asking me to review them and how I liked my product, and I still hadn't even received notification that it had shipped. I emailed them again, and lo and behold, two business days later I get an email saying it had shipped, and a day later I got it.


Now, I like the product, but when a customer tells you they don't have it, and yet you keep asking for reviews about whether or not they like it, you're basically just asking for bad reviews (which I did not give).

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by Calgary14

This is exactly why Google business reviews aren't even worth considering, you can easily buy fake 5 star reviews (and tons of businesses do)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/investigates...ogle-1.6033859

Not even worth considering - I disagree. Need to be navigated carefully knowing what goes on sometimes, absolutely.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Insisting that reviews be five star or nothing only makes Silver’s problems worse. If it were more normal to give 3 and 4 star reviews when it’s completely fair to do so, then a single review that’s less than five stars wouldn’t matter so dang much.

I think we all understand 3/5 doesn’t signify “good” and the people out there who don’t are the exception but also not worth worrying about. Those should basically be up to random chance, and affect the competition just as much as your own business.

I understand the system can create an unlucky few small businesses that might suffer from a bad review, but customers also can suffer from dishonest ratings of businesses. A lot of the reason people are searching for new business is that they’ve found themselves disappointed in their dealings with some fraudulently highly-rated competitor. If there was more focus on delivering quality value and other real business principles, then businesses wouldn’t have to be obsessed with their ratings bringing in nearly as many new customers from web searches.

I think FG’s situation seems like a case where it’s fair to leave a 3/5 review even he ended up getting what he wanted in the end. People’s’ time has value, their money has opportunity costs, and it’s not right to need to drag a business kicking and screaming into what they’re contractually obligated to do. Not to mention the guy was completely dishonest, rude and shady. Why should we worry about that person’s small business more than the next customer he rips off or jerks around?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

You don't think a 3-star review is an attack. It is in the mind of a business owner. If you don't believe me, ask literally any business owner if a three star is a net positive or a net negative for your business. Without exception - and as supported by every business owner in this thread - it is a net negative. I interpret negative reviews as attacks and so do other business owners.

Just because 3-star reviews can have a negative effect doesn’t mean they’re an attack. Treating them as such isn’t healthy. A healthy approach is to assess the rating and criticism.

If it’s not legitimate, if there’s nothing you did wrong or could improve, then chalk it up to the vagaries of dealing with the public. And take comfort in the fact that your competitors get the same unfounded ratings, and they should even out in all probability.

If the criticism has merit - if you did screw up or aspects of your business can be improved - then take the criticism to heart and find ways to do better next time. If you do improve, then you’ve reduced the likelihood of getting similar negative reviews in the future.

But you seem to believe all business operators are always honest, competent, and efficient. That they’re doing customers a favour just by existing. But business owners are no better (or worse) than the general public. Some are dishonest, lazy, or unpleasant to deal with. And some just aren’t as good at delivering a service to customers as their competitors are. So why shouldn’t the public share its experiences to sort the good from the bad and the mediocre from the excellent?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Ped

Case in point: I ordered something from a company back in October, for Christmas. I received an email telling me that items usually ship within 3 business days, and I would receive another email with tracking once it shipped.


After 10 business days, I emailed them to ask them if they had any information about when it would actually ship; I stated that I understood that COVID and staff shortages and shipping issues world-wide are causing delays, but was just looking for a general target date. I also suggested that maybe if they are having issues, don't email your customers that they usually ship within 3 business days.

I’m going through the same thing. I ordered some tabletop gaming products from an online retailer I have never used before, and which has been in operation less than two years. They say they ship within 2-4 days. It’s going on 10 business days and I just emailed for an update - they say haven’t received the products from their warehouse yet. That means unlike the other gaming retailers I deal with, they don’t actually have the product on hand when you order. Which is concerning.

Unless the items ship by the end of this week, I will leave a review that reflects their inefficient practices. Assuming the products arrive in good condition, probably 3 stars. That wouldn’t be an attack, or done out of spite. But as a service to other gamers, and to online game retailers who are able to ship product promptly. It’s the competition of the free market in action.

[nik-]

I don't know about anyone else, but when I see a business owner responding to negative reviews, being all pissy, I definitely say to myself "Yeah, I want to shop there".

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If it’s not legitimate, if there’s nothing you did wrong or could improve, then chalk it up to the vagaries of dealing with the public. And take comfort in the fact that your competitors get the same unfounded ratings, and they should even out in all probability.

The problem is that as we've discussed in this thread, this isn't the case because of paid reviews. This is the one thing where there isn't really a solution or good advice to give the small business owner who's dealing with this. If you're a small outfit and you're competing against bigger entities, they can drown out the unfounded ratings by buying 5 star reviews, which isn't an efficient allocation of funds for a small business (and isn't something they should have to do to have a level playing field anyway). So that's the part where there isn't really any good advice to be given, if you're in that situation.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’m going through the same thing. I ordered some tabletop gaming products from an online retailer I have never used before, and which has been in operation less than two years.

What'd you order?

[shermanator]

Let me tell you about the one time I left a poor review.

A few years ago I had a recruiter reach out to me for a job with a local tech company. It seemed like an exciting opportunity so I was interested. His phone automatically goes to voicemail when I try and call him, so that's a red flag, but two weeks later we finally figure out a time to do the first high level interview. That phone call was standard first interview stuff, no big deal.

The recruiter emails a project for me to do and I do it. A few weeks go by and I hear nothing. I assume I didn't get the role and move on.

Some time later the recruiter contacts me and advises that they want to move me forward in the interview process. I give him my availability and hear nothing back for days. When I follow up, he sends me a meeting request outside of the times I have provided. When I ask him if he can work within the provided availability he does not respond. At that point, I am frustrated and tell him I am no longer interested.

I was so frustrated with the experience I left a review on Glassdoor highlighting what I went through. The one and only time I have left a negative review online. A few days after leaving the review the recruiter calls me and tells me that because of my poor review (which was supposed to be anonymous), he was fired from the company.

So on the one hand, yes reviews can have consequences. But on the other hand, if people are compelled to leave a poor review there is probably a good reason why.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

What'd you order?

Some Runequest RPG books. My regular online retailers (Boardgamebliss, 401 Games) were out of stock, so I took a chance on a new retailer I had never heard of before. Only after the delay in shipping did I look up reviews on this new place, and what do you know, the average is three stars. The complaints cite problems with preorders, long delays, and poor communication. My guess is someone saw the booming tabletop gaming segment, thought they’d jump into the market, and got in way over their head. Lesson learned on my part - I’ll stick to the established retailers who consistently provide good service.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by shermanator

Let me tell you about the one time I left a poor review.

A few years ago I had a recruiter reach out to me for a job with a local tech company. It seemed like an exciting opportunity so I was interested. His phone automatically goes to voicemail when I try and call him, so that's a red flag, but two weeks later we finally figure out a time to do the first high level interview. That phone call was standard first interview stuff, no big deal.

The recruiter emails a project for me to do and I do it. A few weeks go by and I hear nothing. I assume I didn't get the role and move on.

Some time later the recruiter contacts me and advises that they want to move me forward in the interview process. I give him my availability and hear nothing back for days. When I follow up, he sends me a meeting request outside of the times I have provided. When I ask him if he can work within the provided availability he does not respond. At that point, I am frustrated and tell him I am no longer interested.

I was so frustrated with the experience I left a review on Glassdoor highlighting what I went through. The one and only time I have left a negative review online. A few days after leaving the review the recruiter calls me and tells me that because of my poor review (which was supposed to be anonymous), he was fired from the company.

So on the one hand, yes reviews can have consequences. But on the other hand, if people are compelled to leave a poor review there is probably a good reason why.

The person who was fired was probably investigated and found to be to be completely unfit for their job. Everybody wins besides the ding-dong - you, the business, and future customers all benefit. The system that may react a lot to one review can actually be very positive sometimes.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Just because 3-star reviews can have a negative effect doesn’t mean they’re an attack. Treating them as such isn’t healthy. A healthy approach is to assess the rating and criticism.

I think there's an important distinction here I'm not certain you're appreciating. Yes, some 3-star reviews aren't intended to be an attack, but they do end up being an attack. It's victim blaming to say a business owner isn't treating them in a healthy manner. Whether intentional or not, a business and its people (a business, after all, is just a group of people) does experience a negative and permanent mark against their efforts due to a negative review. Doesn't matter if a 3-star review isn't intended to be negative, the result is negative for the business.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If it’s not legitimate, if there’s nothing you did wrong or could improve, then chalk it up to the vagaries of dealing with the public. And take comfort in the fact that your competitors get the same unfounded ratings, and they should even out in all probability.

Sure, and if I slap my secretary's ass I'll just tell her to chalk it up to having a nice rump that I happen to appreciate. You can ask a victim to reframe an interaction all you want, but it changes very little. I suppose she could take comfort in the fact that other women are having their asses slapped, too, but I'm not sure that would help her - as an individual - with her personal feelings of being victimized.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If the criticism has merit - if you did screw up or aspects of your business can be improved - then take the criticism to heart and find ways to do better next time. If you do improve, then you’ve reduced the likelihood of getting similar negative reviews in the future.

I'm not sure the public always knows the best way to run my business that I've been operating for the past 16 years as well as my team does. There was the one guy that demanded we all take off our shoes in the shop so we wouldn't get shoe footprints on his industrial product we were fabricating and huffed and walked away when I told him OSHA wouldn't approve of that, but yeah, my customers are notorious for knowing how to run my business better than me. I'll try to take that to heart next time.

Or the twice a week I'm advised to be open on Saturdays. Yeah, who needs to spend time with their families and have a life outside of a little manufacturing plant.

Believe me, there are lots of tips and tricks out there, 99% of which are absurd and based on absolute ignorance.

And the ones that are helpful (we can always learn) typically come from somebody that just shoots me an email or talks to us the next time they're in our office. Like, you don't need to give us a negative review to give us feedback. What's up with that?

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But you seem to believe all business operators are always honest, competent, and efficient. That they’re doing customers a favour just by existing. But business owners are no better (or worse) than the general public. Some are dishonest, lazy, or unpleasant to deal with. And some just aren’t as good at delivering a service to customers as their competitors are. So why shouldn’t the public share its experiences to sort the good from the bad and the mediocre from the excellent?

I don't believe that at all. I'm trying to get across that business owners are just people. Why are we all supportive of the Me Too movement where unfair power dynamics victimize one group, but when it comes to businesses there is no empathy.

I'm not talking about Elon Musk or multi-millionaire sharks out there who we should have sympathy for. I'm talking about the guy who started a mobile tire changing service getting one-starred because he looked "disheveled when he showed up at my house." Or the snow-clearing company getting one-starred because the snow wasn't instantaneously cleared as soon as the last flake fell as though there wasn't a queue of customers to work through. Or the one guy running his Shawarma spot and getting one-starred because the bathroom wasn't clean enough in the middle of a lunch rush as though he was supposed to stop cooking and run to clean the bathroom.

The review system is not set up to help customers or businesses. It's sole purpose is to drive traffic and clicks on platforms at the expense of businesses. Are some businesses bad? Yeah, of course, but we don't have to nuke them. Just don't go back...it doesn't need to be broadcasted to the world on a continuous and permanent loop.

[woob]

So I will often see a company who responds to reviews every time one is left, good or bad. I just saw this earlier this week as I was trying to find a VW Mechanic in Ontario. The business responded to all reviews, even the 2/5 and 3/5 ones, explaining their side of the story and offered solutions.

Now, I realize this wouldn't always be possible if some 1/5 troll just doesn't want to come to a solution, but surely it would help the business share their story on the 2/5, 3/5 cases?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by woob

So I will often see a company who responds to reviews every time one is left, good or bad. I just saw this earlier this week as I was trying to find a VW Mechanic in Ontario. The business responded to all reviews, even the 2/5 and 3/5 ones, explaining their side of the story and offered solutions.

Now, I realize this wouldn't always be possible if some 1/5 troll just doesn't want to come to a solution, but surely it would help the business share their story on the 2/5, 3/5 cases?

It helps, but it doesn't help the aggregate star rating the business has.

That's where it'd be nice if Google (and other review sites) mitigated the damage that can be done by those who look at the averaged-out star rating and made quick decisions based on that by hiding the star ratings until a certain threshold of incoming reviews is consistently reached. Like 100+ on a rolling 6-month basis. That way the system - that works exactly the same for a Wal-Mart Supercentre as it does for a hot dog stand on Stephen Avenue Walk - addresses the different challenges a small business has racking up a fair average rating.

That by no means solves all the problems with the unfair rating system, but it would help a little on that one point.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I think there's an important distinction here I'm not certain you're appreciating. Yes, some 3-star reviews aren't intended to be an attack, but they do end up being an attack. It's victim blaming to say a business owner isn't treating them in a healthy manner.

I always find the use of the term "victim blaming" really obnoxious outside of its original context, because it seems to me like trying to tangentially benefit from the sympathy rightly afforded to rape victims in situations where the harm to the person saying it is trivial in comparison. But I usually don't bring that up and wasn't going to mention it here, except...

Sure, and if I slap my secretary's ass I'll just tell her to chalk it up to having a nice rump that I happen to appreciate. You can ask a victim to reframe an interaction all you want, but it changes very little.

Why are we all supportive of the Me Too movement where unfair power dynamics victimize one group, but when it comes to businesses there is no empathy.

What on Earth are you doing?! No Sliver! Stop that! Bad Sliver!

Originally Posted by woob

Now, I realize this wouldn't always be possible if some 1/5 troll just doesn't want to come to a solution, but surely it would help the business share their story on the 2/5, 3/5 cases?

Actually, apparently if a business does something wrong or provides poor service but then offers a solution and fixes the problem they created, that's actually worthy of thanks. So if you see this sort of thing, those are actually 5 star reviews!

In seriousness, I think it's certainly of value - the review can give you a sense of how likely you are to have a bad experience (if there are a couple of bad reviews once in a while, you can chalk those up to jerks, but if there are a whole bunch that sound similar, you know what you might be in for and you takes your chances), but also, the downside risk - i.e., what if I DO have a bad experience? Is this the sort of business that'll mitigate my bad experience by helping me out, or will they treat me like I'm assaulting them for voicing that and go to war with me? If the former, I am obviously much more comfortable doing business with them.

I've talked about Wayfair before - I know it's not a small business, but it's the first thing that comes to mind as an example. I've ordered maybe a dozen items off there, and a full quarter of them had some issue with them, which is clearly a terrible rate of issues and exactly what you would expect would be the downside of ordering furniture online. But they've fixed every single one of those instances so completely, in some cases going well beyond what would be a reasonable response to a problem with an order, that I'll order more stuff from them if I need to without any concern at all despite things not being as expected to start.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I always find the use of the term "victim blaming" really obnoxious outside of its original context, because it seems to me like trying to tangentially benefit from the sympathy rightly afforded to rape victims in situations where the harm to the person saying it is trivial in comparison. But I usually don't bring that up and wasn't going to mention it here, except...

Yeah, I knew it wouldn't be a popular term, but when you are attacked and victimized, and then blamed for not doing enough to not be victimized...the term kind of fits independent of its use in other more physically violent and traumatizing circumstances.