Stony Nakoda want to rename all the things

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by SebC

That's just willful blindness. You have two legally distinct groups of people. Sure, you might get some win-wins every once in a while but as soon as you divide people into categories, and those categories have different interests, you're going to create a lot of zero-sum games.

Not at all. My point is that there is no reason to posit this as an us vs them scenario and I haven’t seen anything that convincingly suggests otherwise. What you’ve described only suggests a tendency towards “us and them” but makes no push towards any opposition between the two groups. Two groups with different interests can easily function without standing in opposition to each other, so it’s time we stopped looking at the desires of indigineous people as some opposition to European Canadianism.

Ignoring the differences in different groups of people and expecting everyone to follow a path designed specifically with white European Canadians in mind is the wilful blindness. It is up to our government to integrate the way of life of First Nations fully into our society, not up to them to “intergrate” (assimilate) into the city-centric lifestyle that some people are suggesting.

First Nations have largely had to adapt to a European way of life through force, so it seems to make sense that we offer them some reprieve from that and make amends for some of the recent and historical issues that have been created (many of which we have played a large role in).

The us vs. them thinking needs to stop. A different legal definition may necessitate some separation to you, but it does not require opposition. They’re Canadians and part of Canadian society. The sooner we recognise that and stop thinking they need to “integrate,” the sooner the wounds heal.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It is up to our government to integrate the way of life of First Nations fully into our society.

No it isn't.

"Ok everyone, back to the stone age!"

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

No it isn't.

"Ok everyone, back to the stone age!"

The Stone Age?

Don’t interact with a lot of First Nations people, do you?

EDIT: and to be clear, the statement you quoted does not mean that we should all adapt to their way of life and forget our own. It means recognising it and respecting it as part of the whole.

[llwhiteoutll]

A lot of the us vs. then is built in to law though. And there is no chance a Liberal government would even dream of thinking about touching that. Hell, if you even suggest treating natives the same as other Canadians you’re going to get a lot of grief from people for being racist.

[Kjesse]

Trying to integrate first nations into society is what the residential school thing was all about. It was very, very bad. The idea itself is not bad -- have them be part of society as a whole. Instead it became a brutal regime of trying to erase "nativeness". That being said, even the non-native boarding schools at the time were very brutal on kids.

Who knows what the solution to this mess is. Transferring money to them only looks like a form of welfare and its part of the problem. How do you help the tribes prosper? I'm sure they'd rather be self-sufficient than the way the situation is now.

There is so much wrong with the system now, but where do you even start.

You have to solve all of the land claims, provide them autonomy over the remaining lands they hold, have them adopt their own constitution making their own governments accountable to their people, and then let them tax and spend like any other government would, without interference from the other levels of government.

Within the existing treaty framework though that's almost impossible. There are a patchwork of agreements and non-agreements, you can't deal with them en masse.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Kjesse

Trying to integrate first nations into society is what the residential school thing was all about. It was very, very bad. The idea itself is not bad -- have them be part of society as a whole. Instead it became a brutal regime of trying to erase "nativeness". That being said, even the non-native boarding schools at the time were very brutal on kids.

Who knows what the solution to this mess is. Transferring money to them only looks like a form of welfare and its part of the problem. How do you help the tribes prosper? I'm sure they'd rather be self-sufficient than the way the situation is now.

There is so much wrong with the system now, but where do you even start.

You have to solve all of the land claims, provide them autonomy over the remaining lands they hold, have them adopt their own constitution making their own governments accountable to their people, and then let them tax and spend like any other government would, without interference from the other levels of government.

Within the existing treaty framework though that's almost impossible. There are a patchwork of agreements and non-agreements, you can't deal with them en masse.

There's lots of problems with a lot of the reservation leaders because they basically hold massive power and have very little accountability. So giving them even more power might backfire unless there's a stronger system of accountability.

[flamesfever]

nm

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Ignoring the differences in different groups of people and expecting everyone to follow a path designed specifically with white European Canadians in mind is the wilful blindness. It is up to our government to integrate the way of life of First Nations fully into our society, not up to them to “intergrate” (assimilate) into the city-centric lifestyle that some people are suggesting.

What is it that we expect natives in isolated communities to do for income? For work? Their pre-contact ways of living are long gone, and they're never coming back. Trapping is a way for a few people to earn subsistence living. Then you have logging, fishing, and working in mines - same as other isolated, small towns in rural Canada.

We expect people who have lived in outport villages in Newfoundland, logging towns in Northern Ontario, and mining towns in the interior of B.C. for generations to integrate into our city-centric, modern lifestyle. We encourage their young people to leave, get and education, and pursue their future in cities. If anyone complains, we scoff and say old white people have to adopt to the new world.

So why, besides some abstract sense of guilt or atonement, do we encourage native Canadians to continue to live in declining communities that offer no opportunity for the young?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What is it that we expect natives in isolated communities to do for income? For work? Their pre-contact ways of living are long gone, and they're never coming back. Trapping is a way for a few people to earn subsistence living. Then you have logging, fishing, and working in mines - same as other isolated, small towns in rural Canada.

We expect people who have lived in outport villages in Newfoundland, logging towns in Northern Ontario, and mining towns in the interior of B.C. for generations to integrate into our city-centric, modern lifestyle. We encourage their young people to leave, get and education, and pursue their future in cities. If anyone complains, we scoff and say old white people have to adopt to the new world.

So why, besides some abstract sense of guilt or atonement, do we encourage native Canadians to continue to live in declining communities that offer no opportunity for the young?

Since when don’t we encourage it?

Is there anyone who really thinks that allowing First Nations people to keep their way of life and traditions is the same as outright discouraging young people from seeking any opportunity at all? That’s plainly ridiculous.

There are plenty of First Nations people who seek work and life outside of their communities. Fixing (or completely demolishing) a broken system and settling disputes over land rights, while making amends for cultural genocide, is not “encouraging native Canadians to continue to live in declining communities.”

Part of the problem is exactly this, it’s all or nothing for some people. It’s keep people the way they are, or tell them they need to leave it all behind and westernise with no apology or sympathy warranted. The fact is, if Canada was better at integrating and recognising their culture and their communities historically and now, this problem wouldn’t be where it is. And continuing not to do that is certainly a far cry from “encouraging young people to seek opportunity.”

It’s fine rhetoric “we’re encouraging young people! (by considering the First Nations angle closed and stopping any further concessions) but meaningless and ultimately no better a solution than what we currently have.

[PepsiFree]

In the end, it’s not up to white people to “save” First Nations or pretend we know what is best.

Pay the debt when and where it needs to be paid, but stop the white saviour complex and the racist colonial “we know better than the savages” attitude. Let them live their lives. If they want to move to the city and join the oil and gas industry, sure, if they want to stay on their land and farm? Sure. Fix whatever it is we’ve done to make the current system unsustainable, and then let them live they way they choose to live as long as they feel it’s possible.

A little respect for these people and their culture goes a lot further than thinking every undoing is their own fault and only we can save them. That’s the attitude responsible for some of the biggest black marks in Canadian history, so stop succumbing to it.

[GGG]

We do incentivize reserve living.

The entire grant structure of the Indian Act empowers chiefs. We don't allow the development or sale of that land without approval. Funding for education is run through the Chiefs so is funding for supplemental healthcare. The power structure for the band is the reserve.

All income earned on reserve is tax free. Income earned off reserve is taxed unless working for a government approved native group. Marrying non-status Indians impairs the ability for future gems to maintain status. GST is not paid on reserve.

So while there is encouragement and programs to get young Natives employed off reserve the funding structure embedded within the Indian Act heavily incentivises reserve living.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

In the end, it’s not up to white people to “save” First Nations or pretend we know what is best.

Pay the debt when and where it needs to be paid, but stop the white saviour complex and the racist colonial “we know better than the savages” attitude. Let them live their lives. If they want to move to the city and join the oil and gas industry, sure, if they want to stay on their land and farm? Sure. Fix whatever it is we’ve done to make the current system unsustainable, and then let them live they way they choose to live as long as they feel it’s possible.

A little respect for these people and their culture goes a lot further than thinking every undoing is their own fault and only we can save them. That’s the attitude responsible for some of the biggest black marks in Canadian history, so stop succumbing to it.

Three posts up “it’s up to our government”. Three posts down “it’s not up to the white man”.

You can’t even figure out what to do, what hope do this rest of us have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[V]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Yeah, Ha Ling peak, what a dumb name. It should go back to C-man's Peak.

They still haven't fixed Dutchman Peak. I think that means I get to feel offended.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Three posts up “it’s up to our government”. Three posts down “it’s not up to the white man”.

You can’t even figure out what to do, what hope do this rest of us have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The rest of can start with not taking quotes out of context.

That’d be a start.

Especially when, in context, the two posts make the same point.

[OMG!WTF!]

This is just such a pointless gesture. There isn't a Stoney man, woman or child who would benefit from this; except those hired to represent those who don't care.

[Northendzone]

I would have to think that generally speaking it would be a huge benefit to the emmbers of the SN nation to spend more time and energy on ensure that there a good educational/recreational opportunities for their youth and ensuring that the money they receive from the federal government is distributed in an equitable manner rather than ensuring that one family are millionaires

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Don’t interact with a lot of First Nations people, do you?

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Since when don’t we encourage it?

Serious post - not facetious: I'm curious what your experience is with First Nations?

You seem to speak from experience but your observations are the polar opposite of mine growing up in Northern Saskatchewan.

[stampsx2]

I always find it interesting how things are sacred or ancient burial grounds, but for the right price......well, you know. Pipelines, ring roads, etc.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

I always find it interesting how things are sacred or ancient burial grounds, but for the right price......well, you know. Pipelines, ring roads, etc.

[Muta]

I know it's important to integrate and honor aboriginal heritage into our culture, particularly here in Alberta. However, we already have named streets and infrastructure, art, festivals / events, social programs, national sites, etc. Where do you draw the line as to what's enough? What about integrating all the other cultures that currently live here and make up our citizen base? It is 2017, after all, and we are a beautiful cultural mosaic made of of world cultures, not just local ones now.