Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[browna]

Originally Posted by Bunk

So as a season ticket holder, or a concert goer, I won't see a surcharge on my tickets? It won't exist?

Is there no room for nuance?

Well, someone has to put up that $185m for construction, and I don’t think that amount will be collected by the Flames on event tickets before the shovels hit the ground when that $185m needs to be used. The Flames payout timeline for that ticket tax to fully be collected may be over 5,10,20years, we don’t know. But, for example a $5 ticket charge on 36 million tickets to get to that $185m is a long way away, at 18000 seats an event.

[GirlySports]

sorry if this has been answered:

I'm curious about what "100% of all revenues" includes for the Flames' ownership. Does that include any parking lots or any other things outside the arena that are on the same piece of property? How does the "Arena use during Stampede" work out? Does the arena just hold the building dates open for Stampede until a certain date (say April 30), then can turn around and book any open dates for their own use after that time (possibly increasing the likelihood of usage because the Stampede draws people to the city)? Does the plan for the new facility including lots of luxury boxes and meeting rooms that the team can rent out for non-related events, such as business meetings, weddings, parties, etc.?

All that type of stuff adds up for an owner and it all comes out of the public's pocket.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by JFK

His Worship....

Oh please.

[sureLoss]

Again, here is a stream if anybody needs one:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/calgary-flame...281287?cmp=rss

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/w...calgary-arena/

[Split98]

Originally Posted by transplant99

LOL...i understand but they will be interrupting him at 11:30

Oh yes, ty. Sorry, I appreciate the link. Just clicked and heard that shrill pompous piece of garbage mocking Frannys (or whatever he calls the people of San Francisco...) for stealing their water.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You dont think CSEC has their own in house PR people and think King is responsible for the content of what is stated in his pressers?

Edwards and company, like them or hate them, are not amateurs at this stuff.

I think you missed the joke. MS Paint should have been the tipoff that I was being facetious.

That said, amateur is exactly how I would describe the last 10 years of arena plans from CSEC.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by New Era

My position is a fair deal for all,

Let's be realistic though, as a tax payer and business owner, there is nothing fair about another private business getting free land, tax breaks, and so much assistance. I can't go in next week and get the same type of deal proportionally, and neither can any other business.

The real fair thing here would be for the Flames to collect capital, buy land, build an arena, and hang up their shingle. That's fair because those are the same parameters the rest of us work under.

This is just a debate about how much special treatment they deserve.

[Freeway]

About to begin.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Pretty ugly to paint the board with such broad strokes.

Considering this is a message board about the team I find it hard to believe the majority are looking for an arena deal that is unfair to the team.

Mind bottling but most of us actually like the flames and want them to be successful.

Gotta consider this though... it's "our money", and people defend their money.

1) We all love the Flames. Everything is good.
2) Flames want to raise our ticket prices - Flames Suck!
3) Our property taxes are going to go up $10 a year to allow us to pay for a Flames arena - Flames Suck!

Some people are more moderate on points 2/3, and others are 100% unforgiving...

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'd be guessing, just as you are, but I don't agree.

Nenshi has pretty solid numbers, assuming you can turn one of these vanilla opponents into an upset in 6 weeks would be pretty naive.

I don't think they expect Nenshi to lose. I do think they hoped to take a big bite out of his margin of victory in order to undermine his legitimacy in negotiations. And now I doubt they're even going to get that. If public sentiment against the city providing the bulk of the funding for a new arena is a strong as I suspect, CSEC's tactics are probably going to boost Nenshi's margin of victory.

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think they wanted the whole thing public to get it moving. Done

Get what moving? City Council unanimously rejected the Flame's submission, and then countered with their own proposal. The ball was in the Flames' court when they walked away from the game. Nothing is going to happen until the Flames come up with a better proposal than the one rejected by the City.

Remember, the time pressure on this is all on the Flames. They're the ones operating in an outdated building that isn't generating enough revenue. City Council would happily shelve this whole issue and focus on other business for the next 3 years.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Par

The Flames also provide jobs, bring tourists to the city, companies that do that, get tax breaks

Effectively they are getting a tax break... they're getting 185M upfront which the city balances on it's books with the property tax. If the Flames want to pay that 185M themselves I'm sure the City would talk about a property tax exemption.

King wants the City to just give them money for nothing.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Par

The Flames also provide jobs, bring tourists to the city, companies that do that, get tax breaks, look at the Winnipeg Jets.

Indeed. But they are looking for more than a tax break right? They want the city to pay for a portion of the arena (without repayment) and a tax break.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by JFK

The problem stems from the fact you think you started at center on this issue, you haven't. Your blinding hatred of Mayor Nenshi has molded some fascinating biases. The false equivalence that because King and ownership have been terrible on this issue Nenshi and the city must be too is a start.

His Worship has been trying to fight for taxpayers and get a fair deal for the city. Damn him! Also megalomaniac he is not. Arrogant, full of himself, does that weird eyes closed when talking thing? yes. Obsessed with power? No

what biases?
what false equivalences?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You're just getting this now? I've said it for two years.

I think both men have egos the size of sputnik, it's a real problem in this negotiation. I think I've said that about 50 times in the last 18 months.

Can I assume you're ok with me thinking that about King, but not about Nenshi?

Can I get a copy of the site owner magna carter so I can make sure I don't step outside the lines again?

And you really can't define what affects my stance any more than I can label or paint anyone else. You can disagree with my stance, but you don't get to build a fence around it as you don't have all the information.

This is the like the pessimist calling the realist an optimist. Nobody gets to claim they know where the lines are.

I'd like to THINK (not know) that I sit somewhere in the middle on this because I don't like either men, and I do see some but not a lot of public money as a pretty fair landing spot given the sports comparables.

Hopefully that doesn't disappoint you again.

None of the above is wrong, and clearly you're entitled to your opinion. The problem is when all of the above exists and you're not up front about it and then continually claim to be right in the middle on this when you're just not and your post history on this shows it.

I may not have all the information, but the information that you present paints a pretty clear picture. If that's not consistent with how you really feel about this topic, maybe take a second look at what you're actually putting down as your stances on this issue.

And this isn't about the men. It's about whether this is a good idea.

[Otto-matic]

Here we go.

[sureLoss]

King says they will release their full proposal next week.

[Otto-matic]

Flames releasing their proposal next week(?)

Victoria Park is the focus now.

[Scornfire]

"You'll see our full proposal next week"

seeya in a few months

[Gaskal]

"Flames are paying for everything" schtick, sigh.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It gives the appearance that they aren't willing to be associated with the proposal personally.

Come on now, let’s not be silly.
Does Bettman have all the owners sitting behind him physically on his major decisions, such as the CBA? He’s been delegated the authority, like King, to work for and on behalf of the owners.
Hotchkiss on the rare, measured occasion, would speak up...but him all those other guys are fully aware and interactive with King.