Brad Treliving needs to go

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by zamler

Almost 20% think "He should not and will not be fired" this baffles me.

That means that better than 4/5 think he should go in some capacity.

You can’t get that many dentists to recommend Trident.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by zamler

Almost 20% think "He should not and will not be fired" this baffles me.

Most of CP considered him the second best gm of all time for the franchise...

He's highly overrated and has been for most of his tenure. That Lindholm/Hanafin deal gave him this aura of being a real wheeler and dealer, which he is NOT.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Most of CP considered him the second best gm of all time for the franchise...

He's highly overrated and has been for most of his tenure. That Lindholm/Hanafin deal gave him this aura of being a real wheeler and dealer, which he is NOT.

It was everything to do with Hamilton that got him that reputation. Swinging for the fences on a 22 year old former top 10 pick right shot D right after the team shocked everyone by making the second round started it. It continued when he was able to flip Hamilton in the Hurricanes blockbuster.

He has done well in his selling trades for Glencross, Baertschi, Russell, Hudler, Bennett, Rittich.

Most of his other deals have been minor or players that we missed out on. He can’t keep living off the Hamilton deals that is for sure

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Most of CP considered him the second best gm of all time for the franchise...

He probably is.

That is not a good thing.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

It was everything to do with Hamilton that got him that reputation. Swinging for the fences on a 22 year old former top 10 pick right shot D right after the team shocked everyone by making the second round started it. It continued when he was able to flip Hamilton in the Hurricanes blockbuster.

He has done well in his selling trades for Glencross, Baertschi, Russell, Hudler, Bennett, Rittich.

Most of his other deals have been minor or players that we missed out on. He can’t keep living off the Hamilton deals that is for sure

Hamilton is long gone and we are now at the point where the bad outweighs the good over Treliving's tenure. For a guy that had a reputation of wheeling and dealing he's kept a rotten core intact and as the 960 guys were saying this morning the GM has a daunting task of trying to make offseason changes when almost all of his assets have been devalued. He's made such a mess of things that even the smartest GM would have a difficult time navigating the waters with an ownership group that was expecting a winner and not a rebuild.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Jore

Part of the reason there's been no trades has to be a lack of direction and vision too. Hard to make trades when you don't have a long term plan

I wonder how much of that is related to not having a coach to build around? I could be completely wrong but the coach and GM need to work together to assemble a team based on a direction or vision. The coach is largely responsible for that as he is with the players all the time and has the best understanding of potential and of what is missing. The GMs role is to execute deals to give the coach the right pieces.

With the Flames lack of coaching ability over the last few years it was probably tough for Treliving to know what pieces to go after. Now with Sutter they can probably build things out slowly. I expect a few moves this offseason but also I expect an underwhelming team. But the following season going into Sutter's second full year of coaching things should look a lot better with significant improvement.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Shazam

He probably is.

That is not a good thing.

Treliving being the second best GM this team has had is akin to me stating I would be the fastest person in my nephews kindergarten class. Based on the poor results of the club in general, save for the 80s, Brad being second best is futile.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Hamilton is long gone and we are now at the point where the bad outweighs the good over Treliving's tenure. For a guy that had a reputation of wheeling and dealing he's kept a rotten core intact and as the 960 guys were saying this morning the GM has a daunting task of trying to make offseason changes when almost all of his assets have been devalued. He's made such a mess of things that even the smartest GM would have a difficult time navigating the waters with an ownership group that was expecting a winner and not a rebuild.

Yes I agree the last big trwde he made was 3 years ago which is almost half of his entire tenure. He definitely is a guy that likes to talk deal but hasn’t been able to close many relative to the rumors.

It all started in 2014 the Flames were getting the Carolina 7th overall pick for taking back Cam Ward’s deal. Or the Flames were getting the Coyotes 12th overall pick but Mike Ribero won’t waive his NMC to come here

2015 he pulls off the big Hamilton deal to cap off a hugely successful year 1

2016 rumors all day on the draft that the Flames are either acquiring Ben Bishop and signing him to a 7x7 deal and/or the Flames will be moving into the top 3 of the draft. The night ends up okay as Tkachuk slipped to the Flames at 6 but Brian Elliott was hardly as exciting as Bishop would have been

2017- he makes the Smith and Hamonic deals to keep the wheeling and dealing personna alive but makes a horrible trade with the Islanders

2018- makes the Hurricanes blockbuster and signs plenty of free agents in Ryan, Czarnik, and Neal to multi year deals.

2019-21 he does very little with the team. Swaps Neal for Lucic, makes the big big goalie signing this past offseason and swaps Brodie/Hamonic for Tanev. Lots of potential deals fall through for Stone, Zucker, Kadri and the flames were not able to make the Dubois trade.

He held onto the core for too long hoping they bounce back but now he has to make changes and the assets are worth less than they were last year or the year before. Worries me to think he may have little choice but to tinker and maybe make one really big move (Gaudreau) that underwhelms the fans and they come back next year fully committed to Sutter hockey which will have the Flames playing mostly 2-1 games for the next 2 years until they rear the whole thing down

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Well in fairness when was he supposed to trade Gaudreau and Monahan? After they each had career years and the team finished 2nd in the entire NHL? This off season Covid, the flat cap, the uncertainty, short off season, etc. likely made it extremely difficult. I wanted it to happen this off season but I also realize it was likely near impossible. If any good deals were on the table they would have likely been made.

At this point if they don't go full rebuild I'm going to really have a difficult time caring. Re-tool is going to lead to more of the same. Nothing worse than being stuck in the middle. Fire Brad, hire a new GM, do a real rebuild properly.

In 2006 Sutter dumped basically half of the 2004 miracle team with them not playing a single game after coming within a missed call of winning the SC.

That was as good at that team was going to get. The Flames went on to make the playoffs (as expected) for the next 4 seasons

Yes after a great season is the time to sell high and solidify the team

Hard to think how much better the Flames would be today had they moved 3 or 4 of Gaudreau, Monahan, Hamonic, Backlund Brodie Jankowski Ryan when they were coming off career years in 2018-19

Gio had just won the Norris .

There was a good sign that this team was not solid going forward as shown in the playoffs... where Bennett was the best player.

[CliffFletcher]

I thought Guadreau and Monahan should have been traded last offseason. It was not a popular opinion around here at the time.

But people need to recognized it was the worst offseason in NHL history for making a trade. Almost every potential deal would have to be dollar in for dollar out. The number of teams interested in those two guys would have been small. And the return would have been nothing close to what fans expected - opposing scouts and GMs are well aware of the deficiencies of Gaudreau and Monahan.

So in an alternate reality where Treliving trades away half the core a year ago, this forum melts down over what the Flames got in return and are still calling for Treliving’s head.

[Erick Estrada]

The other elephant in the room is the coach. Darryl was a great coach in his time but is anyone else watching games from the other divisions? It's so much faster and more exciting than the hockey we have seen from the locals. The Flames play so slow and trying to win games 2-1 goes against the grain of the rest of the league. I'm just not saying Darryl can't coach a winner but the margin for error is so small when you can't score goals and have to rely on slowing down opposition. Once they get down by a goal you can pretty well turn out the lights. I just don't see things getting better as it looks like the team is going to be a basement dweller for some time.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I think we are in sports fan psychology area now. That’s a resigned loser view, in terms of the enjoyment of the current season

The fate of the team has been in its own hands, with 5 out of 7 against the team it can quite reasonably catch, Montreal

Some people just don’t live with that loser mindset, much less the out loud admitted loser mindset

Not sure I would frame it that way. The hope was pinned to them sweeping the Habs. That's a tough thing to do for really good teams, let alone a team like the Flames.
The basic probability stats told the story. It was slim to none with slim riding out of town.
I still watch the games and cheer for them.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Wow, don’t know who could have predicted that Darryl Sutter was the wrong coach at the wrong time for this team?

[madmike]

This team is set up for another long, ugly rebuild. I really don't think Treliving should be the one leading it given what an awful job he's done so far.

It's not just Treliving though. Every aspect of the organization seems sub-par: player development, drafting, overall strategy - nothing seems to be working. Execs and coaches (Sigalet...) seem to get jobs for life with the Flames - no matter how poor a job they do - with the exception of the Flames coaches, who have been the fall guys for Treliving.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The other elephant in the room is the coach. Darryl was a great coach in his time but is anyone else watching games from the other divisions? It's so much faster and more exciting than the hockey we have seen from the locals. The Flames play so slow and trying to win games 2-1 goes against the grain of the rest of the league. I'm just not saying Darryl can't coach a winner but the margin for error is so small when you can't score goals and have to rely on slowing down opposition. Once they get down by a goal you can pretty well turn out the lights. I just don't see things getting better as it looks like the team is going to be a basement dweller for some time.

I am honestly not concerned at all about Sutter right now. The guy’s resume speaks for itself. The personnel is a huge problem as this team is not built to be a grinding team and they are not skilled enough to hang with the top teams. I think that is the issue. The Flames thought that Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm were a core group you could build a contender around. Basically once Lindholm joined the team it gave them 4 high end forwards. The fact that Monahan has regressed to the point he is not even a decent second line center or the fact Tkachuk has seemingly completely lost his way factors into this team being poor.

Markstrom really struggling post injury has cost this team as many or more points than the team not scoring has. Darryl has also been crystal clear this team is not talented enough to do what they did 2 years ago and score goals at will

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I thought Guadreau and Monahan should have been traded last offseason. It was not a popular opinion around here at the time.

.

Pretty sure it was a very popular opinion that at least 1 of them was traded.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Pretty sure it was a very popular opinion that at least 1 of them was traded.

The real unpopular but correct opinion was to trade Monahan after the Avalanche series

Originally Posted by madmike

This team is set up for another long, ugly rebuild. I really don't think Treliving should be the one leading it given what an awful job he's done so far.

It's not just Treliving though. Every aspect of the organization seems sub-par: player development, drafting, overall strategy - nothing seems to be working. Execs and coaches (Sigalet...) seem to get jobs for life with the Flames - no matter how poor a job they do - with the exception of the Flames coaches, who have been the fall guys for Treliving.

Yes, pro scounting especially seems to be a huge problem area, but general asset management, planning, projection, etc. are in shambles

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by madmike

This team is set up for another long, ugly rebuild. I really don't think Treliving should be the one leading it given what an awful job he's done so far.

It's not just Treliving though. Every aspect of the organization seems sub-par: player development, drafting, overall strategy - nothing seems to be working. Execs and coaches (Sigalet...) seem to get jobs for life with the Flames - no matter how poor a job they do - with the exception of the Flames coaches, who have been the fall guys for Treliving.

Not sure I agree on the drafting and development given the work they've done in the last several years. Lots of young players on the roster that they've developed as well.

Pro scouting that got them Brouwer and Neal should be looked at.

And then I guess the biggest thing is the assumption that you can build a competitive NHL team around a top line with Monahan and Gaudreau. Whose fault is that? Was it a reasonable assumption?

David Poile has had a job for life, the Flames have flown through executives since Fletcher left.

[Toonage]

I know this is about Treliving needing to go, but what about the rest of the coaching staff? What are the odds that Sutter gets to pick his own staff (or wants to make those changes) next season? I can't recall if he made big changes to the staff in L.A.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The other elephant in the room is the coach. Darryl was a great coach in his time but is anyone else watching games from the other divisions? It's so much faster and more exciting than the hockey we have seen from the locals. The Flames play so slow and trying to win games 2-1 goes against the grain of the rest of the league. I'm just not saying Darryl can't coach a winner but the margin for error is so small when you can't score goals and have to rely on slowing down opposition. Once they get down by a goal you can pretty well turn out the lights. I just don't see things getting better as it looks like the team is going to be a basement dweller for some time.

This was a pre-existing problem.

Darryl is seems pretty openly critical of this team's "style" and is working on getting them to play with more pace.

I don't think this is coaching problem - it used to be part of it, but not anymore. Not since Darryl.

Now we just have to face the fact that this team has a bottom-10 roster. If we look at things in hindsight, you could see it coming. The train was derailing during the Gulutzan years and it just kept sliding off the rails more and more every year. The core of this team just never developed beyond where they were years ago, and they built up a plethora of bad habits along the way.

Monahan developed into a one-dimensional player that relies on Gaudreau to get him the puck in high danger areas, and never grew his game beyond that.

Gaudreau is elite on the rush, but quite poor in most other circumstances.

Tkachuk came into the league as a power forward who focused on crashing the net, drawing lots of penalties and generally being a pain. He's now just not effective.

Backlund has stayed steady, but he is what he is. He'd slot nicely on a team that needed a shut-down centre who can pitch in offensively, but this team pretty much needs him to be more than he's capable of being for it to be successful.

Giordano, father time is catching up. I can't be critical of this guy, he gives it his all.

Lindholm is one of the bright spots, but as our best forward, that's not a high enough ceiling for a successful team.

Mangiapane is a good support piece, but Dube, Andersson, and Valimaki are all players who have failed to take steps forward this year - and none of these guys are tracking to be elite. So where's the future?

Hanifin is solidifying his spot as a minute-munching 2nd pair defenceman, but not a cornerstone piece.

Tanev is having a hell of a bounce back season and a great first year for the Flames, but his contract still scares and I don't think he'll ever be as good as he is this season again.

Add up the parts and this team's roster just is what it is. Outside of 18/19 this team has been a bubble team every single season under Treliving. With one of the poorest prospect pools in the league, I'm not sure why we should be defending Treliving at this point. The team just isn't good and it isn't primed to take a big step forward. The rush back to the middle is complete.