If Wayne Gretzky played today, is he better than Sid? Is 99 the GOAT?

[BACKCHECK!!!]

How is this even a question?

Jagr posted 123 points in the modern NHL, outscoring Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Heatley, et al. And that was when he was 34.

Sakic posted 100 points in 2007, at 38 years old.

Teemu Selanne laid the boots on the NHL as an old man.

When did the NHL leave Chris Chelios behind? At 46 years old, when he had a regular roster spot on the cup championship Wings?

Even as old men, these guys were impact players in the modern NHL. And none of them was even in the same stratosphere as Gretzky.

Gretzky would CRUSH today's NHL.

[CSharp]

All I can say is that Gretzky played at the right time and t he right place. No one has yet to break his records that he holds, which means he's still the greatest hockey player still to this date. There are other great players who came close to matching or breaking his single season goal scoring record in the likes of Jagr, Hull, and Selanne. Those are superstars and yet none can match what Gretzky has done. We can play the what-if all day long, but at the end of every day until someone breaks his records, he'll be the greatest hockey player that's ever played this game. Skill and speed-wise, McDavid beats anyone hands down - and he's still got a long ways to prove he's one of the great superstars.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by CSharp

All I can say is that Gretzky played at the right time and t he right place. No one has yet to break his records that he holds, which means he's still the greatest hockey player still to this date. There are other great players who came close to matching or breaking his single season goal scoring record in the likes of Jagr, Hull, and Selanne. Those are superstars and yet none can match what Gretzky has done. We can play the what-if all day long, but at the end of every day until someone breaks his records, he'll be the greatest hockey player that's ever played this game. Skill and speed-wise, McDavid beats anyone hands down - and he's still got a long ways to prove he's one of the great superstars.

Why does it automatically have to be a forward who is the G.O.A.T?

Bobby Orr did things no else could do then or now, or in any era. IMO Bobby is the greatest of all time, but this is a Wayner vs Crosby thread so carry on.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Bourque played with Lidstrom between the ages of 30-39 and 21-30, respectively. In that time frame they both one the Norris trophy for best defender. You pretty much had an exact passing of the torch between these two greats. Their primes didn't overlap, but you can compare the two and pick your poison on who was the better one but we can all agree they were in the same "tier."

Similar Lidstrom played with Karlsson in another passing of the torch situation. Lidstrom won his last Norris in 2011 before Karlsson won his first in 2012. There's going to be some debate on exactly how Karlsson compares to Lidstrom but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he improves his legacy and ends up as the same tier of Lidstrom for sake of argument at least when it comes to offense. Karlsson=Lidstrom=Bourque. Karlsson is scoring 82 in today's Golden Era of hockey where only demigods are playing. Assuming he was transported back into the 1980's, where you had the league filled with chain-smoking, deformed, grotesque, never-even-seen-ice-prior to playing in the NHL players, it stands to reason that Karlsson would obliterate the competition. Maybe 300 points against such a weak league filled with circus freaks seems reasonably? And yet his "equal" in Bourque never reached the 100 point plateau.

You know what, maybe it wasn't as easy to score in the 80's as people think. Maybe Gretzky just made it look that way.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ thanked for categorization of the eras

[curves2000]

One of the funny things about this debate from a hockey fan perspective is when asked, the legends of the game always defer to Gordie Howe! I have heard Bobby Orr, Gretzky and even Mario just shake their head at what Gordie was able to do. He was the complete package they say with scoring, longevity, toughness, fighting and leadership. The man played in 5 different decades and people always compare the NHL numbers but a lot of fans forget the type of numbers he put up in the WHA.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

You know what, maybe it wasn't as easy to score in the 80's as people think. Maybe Gretzky just made it look that way.

It was easier (goals per game metrics show that) - but he still killed his peers. These are the years he won the Art Ross

80/81: Won scoring title by 29 pts
81/82: Won scoring title by 65 pts (Goals by 28)
82/83: Won scoring title by 72 points
83/84: Won scoring title by 79 points (Goals by 31)
84/85: Won scoring title by 73 points
85/86: Won scoring title by 74 points (Mario was 2nd in his 2nd season)
86/87: Won scoring title by 75 points
89/90: Won scoring title by 13 points
90/91: Won scoring title by 32 points
93/94: Won scoring title by 10 points

From 81 to about 87 he was beating the next leading scorer by more points than 95% of NHLers today even get in a season.

It was easier to score in the 80s but I still think that it unfairly get's used to discount Gretzky's accomplishments. The guy was still head and shoulders above his closest peers.

In Crosby's two Art Ross seasons he beat out the competition by 7 and 17 points. Last year McDavid beat the competition by 11 points. IMO the only forward who has even been even close is Mario, he had some seasons where he was winning by 40+ points.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It was easier (goals per game metrics show that) - but he still killed his peers. These are the years he won the Art Ross

80/81: Won scoring title by 29 pts
81/82: Won scoring title by 65 pts (Goals by 28)
82/83: Won scoring title by 72 points
83/84: Won scoring title by 79 points (Goals by 31)
84/85: Won scoring title by 73 points
85/86: Won scoring title by 74 points (Mario's was 2nd in his 2nd season)
86/87: Won scoring title by 75 points
89/90: Won scoring title by 13 points
90/91: Won scoring title by 32 points
93/94: Won scoring title by 10 points

From 81 to about 87 he was beating the next leading scorer by more points than 95% of NHLers today even get in a season.

It was easier to score in the 80s but I still think that it unfairly get's used to discount Gretzky's accomplishments. The guy was still head and shoulders above his closest peers.

In Crosby's two Art Ross seasons he beat out the competition by 7 and 17 points. Last year McDavid beat the competition by 11 points. IMO the only forward who has even been even close is Mario, he had some seasons where he was winning by 40+ points.

I have never seen the spreads.... Wow

That's an extra point per game...

[Igottago]

If it wasn't obvious before, looking at the statistics posted should answer the thread title pretty clearly. Gretzky is pretty much god in this sport. Many of his records will never come close to being broken.

[flamesfever]

I agree that the only way you can honestly compare players is with their peers at the time. In my many years of watching hockey there are only two players that are were so far above their peers that they seemed to be in a league of their own. They are Orr and Gretzky.

Both players stood out in remarkable ways before they even reached the NHL. When Gretzky came to my home town at the age of 12, the whole town went down to the arena to watch him play. When Orr played for the Oshawa Generals, he got more Toronto press than any of the NHL players.

Both players had an uncanny ability to read ahead of the play, and be super creative. I think the main advantage in these players existed in their brain...physical size, strength and speed were secondary. Like many other super humans that stood out in their fields, their learning started in their very early formative years. Family support and access to ice obviously played a large part.

There is not doubt in my mind that Orr and Gretzky would be at the top of the league in today's hockey, especially with the reduced clutch and grab and goonery that hindered the best players ability to succeed.

[SuperMatt18]

Orr is an interesting case when you compare him to his peers as well. Maybe more impressive than Gretzky but also tough to compare since he truly revolutionized the position and was the first puck moving, skating d-man who was counted on to contribute offensively as well.

69/70: Highest scoring d-man by 76 points
70/71: Highest scoring d-man by 76 points
71/72: Highest scoring d-man by 44 points
72/73: Highest scoring d-man by 47 points
73/74: Highest scoring d-man by 40 points
74/75: Highest scoring d-man by 59 points

Really the 4 best skaters ever are Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Howe (Longevity + Dominated his peers at his peak) and after that it's not that close.

Hasek was similarly dominating as a goalie in his prime and probably should be #5 on that Mt. Rushmore - in his 8 years as a starter in Buffalo he had a .928 save percentage. In that same time period Roy was a .915, and Brodeur was a .912 and they were 2nd and 3rd respectively. Considering those other two are also considered among the best of all time, and Hasek was that much better, he probably deserves more respect as the best of all time in his prime.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by curves2000

One of the funny things about this debate from a hockey fan perspective is when asked, the legends of the game always defer to Gordie Howe! I have heard Bobby Orr, Gretzky and even Mario just shake their head at what Gordie was able to do. He was the complete package they say with scoring, longevity, toughness, fighting and leadership. The man played in 5 different decades and people always compare the NHL numbers but a lot of fans forget the type of numbers he put up in the WHA.

Yeah, but players from back then wouldn't have the fitness to play in today's NHL...

[Beatle17]

Bobby Hull was pretty weak too!

[Oling_Roachinen]

Large image of fatty Ovechkin

Spoiler!

Need a little spare tire, keeps the energy for the 82 game season. Didn't know that in the 60's duh.

[FlameyMcFlameFace]

Lol these picture comparisons are killing me

[CliffFletcher]

Who's the dude with the crutches?

[Oling_Roachinen]

All-time Canuck great Kyle wellfedWellwood. But he was in Toronto, I think, at the time of the picture.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Bobby Hull was pretty weak too!

I recall when Bobby Hull came back to our home town area in the summer, when playing baseball, he had to cut the shoulders out of his t-shirts for them to fit.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Who's the dude with the crutches?

I think that's Kyle Wellwood, aka Wellfed.

Edit: Oops already answered.

[activeStick]

All of Gretzky's deficiencies that could be improved through diet and training around today would make him more dominant. He is who he is, so he's not going to suddenly be a mean SOB, but he'd be faster and stronger.