Systemic Racism in US and Canada

[afc wimbledon]

Just to be clear here, there is no 'answer' to the issues of native Canadians, there are a bunch of related issues that all have related possible solutions that will take generations to possibly work.

[Hemi-Cuda]

The next marches and demonstrations will be for Jonathan Price

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/lo...0-cfd32d8976ca

Stand-up guy intervenes when a man starts beating on his wife (white), cops arrive, tase and then shoot the black man. This is probably the most clear cut example of white privilege I've ever seen

"When police arrived, I’m told, he raised his hands and attempted to explain what was going on," Merritt wrote on Facebook. "Police fired tasers at him and when his body convulsed from the electrical current, they 'perceived a threat' and shot him to death."

[Azure]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think that is part of the problem that some benefits are tied to living on the reserve. By eliminating that part of the governance and directly giving benefits to individuals helps to address that issue. However you would really need to hear from both on reserve and off of the affects of such an initiative.

Right now reserve living is incentivized through the Indian Act. This is a problem.

I agree completely.

Is there enough political capital available to disband or change the Indian Act to give more power to the individuals and less to the band leaders? I'm not sure there is, and I do know that much of the messaging will be controlled by the band leaders.

Individual Canadians are not knowledgeable enough to understand what is really go on, and I think the media would basically kill any effort made to change something.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Who is paying for it? The bands? No chance.

You think our province or feds want to drop more money into that bottomless pit?

The problem is that simply throwing money at it won't solve the issue.

There needs to be a clear plan going forward, with regulations in place to make sure the plants are looked after once they are built. That means agreement from the reserves and the construction companies.

I just don't see that happening.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Azure

I agree completely.

Is there enough political capital available to disband or change the Indian Act to give more power to the individuals and less to the band leaders? I'm not sure there is, and I do know that much of the messaging will be controlled by the band leaders.

Individual Canadians are not knowledgeable enough to understand what is really go on, and I think the media would basically kill any effort made to change something.

I think they key of whatever solution is proposed is that it needs to be from First Nations people. It can’t be seen as being dictated be the government.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Just to be clear here, there is no 'answer' to the issues of native Canadians, there are a bunch of related issues that all have related possible solutions that will take generations to possibly work.

It is also important to note that any 'answers' to issues Indigenous Canadians face should answers that Indigenous peoples have brought forward.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Any South Africans on here that could respond to that?

I'm not South African but I've spent a fair amount of time there. There's no real comparison, its more the word that is useful (apartheid) as describing an entrenched legal system that recognizes different classes of people based on ethnicity within one country, having different legal, political, economic rights than others, enshrined in law. They have a name for it in South Africa, I don't think we do...

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

It is also important to note that any 'answers' to issues Indigenous Canadians face should answers that Indigenous peoples have brought forward.

I think while that would be ideal I woudnt call it essential, one of the things you have to deal with when taking indigenous kids from indigenous agencies tends to be a lack of expertise or standards you take for granted in non indigenous Government agencies, the indigenous community doesn't have the skill sets needed to solve all of its problems and the band system itself works to keep things that way

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think while that would be ideal I woudnt call it essential, one of the things you have to deal with when taking indigenous kids from indigenous agencies tends to be a lack of expertise or standards you take for granted in non indigenous Government agencies, the indigenous community doesn't have the skill sets needed to solve all of its problems and the band system itself works to keep things that way

Yep. Bands offices often lack basic administrative, computer, bookkeeping, etc. skills, let alone counselling and special needs education expertise. And the nature of band politics makes it difficult to build up that expertise, with newly elected leaders typically removing the staff who are trained up and replacing them with family and supporters.

Some of these nations are made up of 400-600 people, few of whom have any education beyond high school. The human capital they have available to address some of these complex issues is extremely limited.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I'm not South African but I've spent a fair amount of time there. There's no real comparison, its more the word that is useful (apartheid) as describing an entrenched legal system that recognizes different classes of people based on ethnicity within one country, having different legal, political, economic rights than others, enshrined in law. They have a name for it in South Africa, I don't think we do...

And to be clear I am not comparing it to what happened in South Africa. I am just saying that based on the definition of the word that we have a similar system here.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Azure

Is there enough political capital available to disband or change the Indian Act to

Pretty much no. Change? Sure, slowly. Repeal? I don't see it happening anytime at all soon.

There's always been an appetite to repeal it. From Trudeau to Trudeau, I'm not sure if there's been many prime ministers who didn't try to get rid of it and certainly all tried to change it. But they are always met with backlash from Indigenous and non-Indigenous alike. There's just no consensus, there can't be. There's Status and non-status, there's chiefs and councils, hereditary leaders and regular members, there's have bands and have-not bands, there's just so many different opinions that trying to appease one means pissing off four others.

Pierre Trudeau had his 1969 white paper that would have repealed the Indian Act (and more). It was lead by Chretien as Minister of Indian Affairs at the time. Ultimately due to the heavy backlash, it did not succeed and baby Trudeau's Liberal Party would apologize for it in 2014.

Harper wanted it gone. Bill C-428, the Indian Act Amendment and Replacement Act, in 2012 would have...well replaced the Indian Act but that didn't go as plan.

Trudeau pledged to end it too a couple years ago and appointed Dr. Carolyn Bennett as Crown-Indigenous Relations Minister to move beyond the Indian Act. But last year she backed off, and instead we got Bill S-3.

Paul Martin had the Kelowna Accord which is probably ultimately something that will have to happen to gain support, but Harper's government saw it more as just throwing money at a problem and didn't follow through with it when he took office.

But despite a lot of the huge grand plans falling through, we do keep inching forward. Framework agreements will be key I think. That gives a lot of autonomy and independence back to the bands without disrupting the system so much that it causes backlash.

Otherwise repealing the whole thing and replacing it with something that's 'better' isn't something that can happen in one term of government. It's a hardsell knowing you'll have to work on this from the getgo of your government and all could be for naught if you aren't reelected. And in doing so you're working on a bomb that could explode at any given time. If you're not careful you could be accused of racism or colonialism, etc., guaranteed to have dozens of court challenges, and maybe even opening up a constitutional crisis. So pretty much I think you need to Theseus Ship it and replace a section here and there until you get to a point where it 'works.'

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

That's a bit disingenuous as the residential school program that we really reference was discontinued long before that. 50 years isn't a long period of time. But it's long enough to have it be "historical" rather the currently relevant as a data point that society is "systemically racist".

That's my understanding of what "systemic racism" is.

Something happens in the past, where a specific group is disadvantaged. For example, their wealth is removed, they are enslaved, imprisoned, denied equal rights to employment and housing, taken from their families, abused, or some combination of all of these.

Those people end up in poverty, addiction, incarcerated etc, and generally make pretty poor parents as a result. Now their kids grow up in bad conditions, and are also predisposed to be poor parents and not give their kids the opportunities that they should have.

Things that were way back in the past can echo for a long time. I'm not sure if anyone really has a good understanding of how to effectively break those cycles entirely. There are certainly no quick fixes, and at the very least, it's a multigenerational problem, that lasts significantly more than 50 years, all because of a potentially short period of direct, overt racism in comparison.

[Azure]

In order to get around the issue of one government disbanding what a pervious government did I would say they need to setup a bi-partisan committee that has the mandate to change stuff, and run it through the Senate or something.

[GGG]

I think people place far to much blame on band leaders. There are many good we’ll run bands. I would suspect the level of corruption is no worse then any other types of businesses and government. I think some of the scape goating that goes on is driven with racist undertones.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think people place far to much blame on band leaders. There are many good we’ll run bands. I would suspect the level of corruption is no worse then any other types of businesses and government. I think some of the scape goating that goes on is driven with racist undertones.

Well it can’t be both. Either it’s racist or they get criticized like every other corrupt business and government that gets lambasted for squandering money and screwing people who are on the bottom wrung.

That’s the problem. Point out the same problems as any other corrupt organization, someone shouts racist, discussion over. Congrats. You won. Good job it did protecting the people living in poverty with #### education and health care, rampant drug addiction, high crime rates, unsafe living conditions, poor employment opportunities etc.

But hey, at least you’re not racist.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Well it can’t be both. Either it’s racist or they get criticized like every other corrupt business and government that gets lambasted for squandering money and screwing people who are on the bottom wrung.

That’s the problem. Point out the same problems as any other corrupt organization, someone shouts racist, discussion over. Congrats. You won. Good job it did protecting the people living in poverty with #### education and health care, rampant drug addiction, high crime rates, unsafe living conditions, poor employment opportunities etc.

But hey, at least you’re not racist.

It certainly can be both. There can be both racist reasons for calling out bands and not racist ones. If you assume without evidence that bands are more corrupt then typical governance structures that would likely be an assumption driven by race.

Treating all bands monolithically is likely racist.

If you are calling for more transparency on government structures because without auditing corruption is likely to occur then that may not be driven by race.

[afc wimbledon]

Band leaders aren't corrupt so much as utterly unskilled, I worked with a native youth worker a while back I am still friends with, he was outed as the best paid politician in Canada for recieving around a million dollars as an annual salary with bonus's for signing a shopping mall lease on the land near the ferry terminal, he isnt corrupt and cares deeply about his band but he is no more skilled at running a small municipality than I am.

His band also lacks running water despite being about 200 feet from a water main but they have a huge shopping center, the chances that a small town of a few hundred souls will have anyone qualified to run it in any community are miniscule, the difference is in non native communities we hire from other places where there are qualified people

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Band leaders aren't corrupt so much as utterly unskilled, I worked with a native youth worker a while back I am still friends with, he was outed as the best paid politician in Canada for recieving around a million dollars as an annual salary with bonus's for signing a shopping mall lease on the land near the ferry terminal, he isnt corrupt and cares deeply about his band but he is no more skilled at running a small municipality than I am.

His band also lacks running water despite being about 200 feet from a water main but they have a huge shopping center, the chances that a small town of a few hundred souls will have anyone qualified to run it in any community are miniscule, the difference is in non native communities we hire from other places where there are qualified people

Just to be clear, you don’t think band leadership across our country has a corruption problem, let alone an enormous corruption problem?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Just to be clear, you don’t think band leadership across our country has a corruption problem, let alone an enormous corruption problem?

I think there are corrupt native and non native politicians, I think the issues of Bands tend to incompetence though more than corruption, I sat on a board of an extended health facility a few years ago, it is a medium size end of life care facility in east Van, in order to keep us happy board members the Ex' Dir' would schedule board training weekends in Whistler or Harrison Hot Springs, no expenses spared, it wasnt outright corrupt, we did have training sessions but it was pretty dam close, it was a well run facility, he was a competent director, the clients were well taken care of and when I brought it up with him he was pretty honest, he said most of the people he needed on the board, the lawyers, ex health board executives, local MLA's etc just wouldnt volunteer without a few sweetners, I think bands tend to also run like this but with less competence in many cases.

[afc wimbledon]

To be clear I think municipal politics in 'white' Canada is massively corrupt as well, the difference is there is better oversight by the voters and the higher provincial authorities, RCMP etc so it is restricted to the mayor getting his drive way paved for free or his kid getting a job, on bands there is no oversight