[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by jammies

So you claim, but all you seem to talk about for solutions is the City doing other than they've already done, and this after the City has gone far beyond what CSEC has done, in a shorter period of time.

All I seem to talk about is the city doing other than what they're doing? Not sure what you mean there. haven't spoken much about the city, but disappointment with the mayor's attitude.

I wish they would have countered in some way and not just said nope, but that's just me.

Originally Posted by jammies

The only way someone could be "equally disappointed" is if that person has a huge bias towards the side that is pretty clearly bungled their way along for the last decade. Other than an amateur-hour presentation and some vague threats, what have CSEC and Ken King done over the last ten years? That's a far more egregious failure than the mayor being adversarial for a few months.

This kind of thinking has always bugged me. You're applying your filter to what I think and telling me I'm pretty much wrong for thinking differently. That's not all that constructive.

I think they're both making a mess of things, I can't believe how many people feel the need to break that down and tell me I have a bias or I'm tinted or simply wrong for thinking these two guys have both let the city down.

Seems there's more a bias in not being able to let something like that go then the other way around.

Originally Posted by jammies

If you want naive, look at the guy who doesn't see King trying to play the political game first, and failing because he picked the wrong guy to try to play hardball with. Nenshi loves conflict, not knowing that in advance is yet another inexcusable failure on CSEC's part, and shows yet again which party to any potential deal is flailing around aimlessly with incompetence at the head.

And now I'm naive?

This pro city side has to take a deep breath and realize there are no saints in this chaos. I don't like how Ken King has presented this at all, and I've said that. I wonder how much he made up along the way and if he's in any hot water with team ownership, or if this honestly the way they thought they should set out.

But Nenshi has had a quite a year of arrogance when you take Uber and the "just math" insult and add it to his handlings of the building.

I wish we could bounce both of them and start over with two new leaders.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But Nenshi has had a quite a year of arrogance when you take Uber and the "just math" insult and add it to his handlings of the building.

What do you think Nenshi should have done differently? If it's just his tone you dislike, then I'd agree. But the substance of his opposition is pretty straightforward A) No public money for a private business, and B) There's nothing to talk about until you show us a plan.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I wish they would have countered in some way and not just said nope, but that's just me.

Countered what, exactly?

It seems the city has advanced things miles further than CSEC...

This pro city side has to take a deep breath and realize there are no saints in this chaos. I don't like how Ken King has presented this at all, and I've said that. I wonder how much he made up along the way and if he's in any hot water with team ownership, or if this honestly the way they thought they should set out.

But Nenshi has had a quite a year of arrogance when you take Uber and the "just math" insult and add it to his handlings of the building.

I wish we could bounce both of them and start over with two new leaders.

I think the big issue here is that the different sides aren't playing from the same level of assumptions. Pro-building folks seem to think it's an urgent need, whereas I think there are plenty of people like me who see it as a nice possibility, but not a top priority. When that initial perspective differs so much, of course we view pieces of the situation through different lenses.

Somewhat ironically, the actions taken to date by both parties seem contrary to their perceived positions. Flames talk about how urgent it is, but have done a bare minimum of work to advance things. City doesn't really care when it happens (just that it's done smartly when it does), but has taken the initiative to determine what makes most sense for the city and could be worthy of support.


IMO the team could continue to operate profitably for at least another 20 years in the Dome. Someone may counter that the mayor said they need to move fast - that's only referring to the sitting council. Of course, a new council may want to get their feet wet with some other issues before diving into the turbulent waters of the arena debate. Personally, I think the deal should wait and it should be a big election issue, if not a plebiscite (which would require them to get moving and get the basics of a proposal ironed out).

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I wish they would have countered in some way and not just said nope, but that's just me.

So yah then, the City should have done something different. Even though they haven't "just said nope", they've come up with counter-proposal. CSEC though, they've put a project on a napkin and lazily copied Edmonton's deal. That seems like both sides are equally culpable for failure.

Originally Posted by Bingo

This kind of thinking has always bugged me. You're applying your filter to what I think and telling me I'm pretty much wrong for thinking differently.

I'm not telling you you're wrong for having your opinion, I'm telling you you're wrong in inferring you have no bias when you obviously do. Multiple people have commented on it, yet you're sure you are only taking the high road, with lofty principle as your guide.

You do that quite often, claim to see that both sides have merits to their arguments, then attack one side almost exclusively. It doesn't make your arguments wrong, but it's an ineffective rhetorical device.

Originally Posted by Bingo

And now I'm naive?

Yeah, you point out that a politician politicks, but also that somehow you expected better. What would you call that?

[Alberta_Beef]

I agree with everything Bingo is saying 100%, both sides are the problem. Not just one.

[powderjunkie]

Hold on, what exactly could/should the mayor/city have done differently? If the answer is to turn down the snark again, then fair enough, but that likely means having nothing more than a typical, calculating, say-nothing politician-drone. Personally, I'm more than willing to endure Nenshi's occasional snark-flubs to have him cut right through the typical political BS the rest of the time.


Is this the list? Is there anything else?

Originally Posted by Bingo

I see a bunch of BS in what he's been saying, and it's all posturing.

Doubting the concert issues vs Edmonton when it's clear as day.

Shortening the rink life to suite his narrative

Pursuing an olympic bid that will need new facilities at the same time he questions the need to replace the saddledome.

Saying there is no hurry, and then turning around and saying time is off the essence.

Unilaterally calling CalgaryNext dead when the Flames side was told to put it on hold while they look into the City lead plan B.

So yeah this stuff bothers me as does Ken King's initial presentation and his smug responses to the media afterwards. The city deserves better than these two megalomaniacs furthering their social standing in the city.

The quantifiable impact of missing concerts is very much up for debate. IMO such an impact exists, but is negligible in this whole calculation.

Wake me up when the Saddledome is no longer a safe venue.

Without Olympics, the need to replace Saddledome is not necessarily urgent.

There is no hurry. This council just won't be around for long.

On your last point, I guess I'll concede it, but I honestly don't see what the big deal is, either. CNext was mainly kept alive as a procedural formality by council. The tenor of council was obvious - from the city's perspective, it was dead. They just wanted to keep an open dialogue, and tell CSEC it was dead before declaring it so via motion. King is the one posturing by being "surprised" at Nenshi's dead proclamation. I am pretty darn confident that CSEC was made aware of the city's position (ie. CNext is as good as dead), before Nenshi made his remarks in a media scrum. Sure, he could have worded it a bit more diplomatically. Okay. Big whoop. It's not like it was a proofed and edited press-release. I still prefer candid-Nenshi to politico-drone-mayors of the past.

If the CNext proposal does anything useful, it's prove that this is ABSOLUTELY NOT URGENT. Because under even the most optimistic projections, CNext construction was never going to be a quick thing.


So, seriously, what am I missing? How are Nenshi/the city acting poorly? Is there anything beyond not being perfectly diplomatic in media scrums?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by jammies

I'm not telling you you're wrong for having your opinion, I'm telling you you're wrong in inferring you have no bias when you obviously do. Multiple people have commented on it, yet you're sure you are only taking the high road, with lofty principle as your guide.

You do that quite often, claim to see that both sides have merits to their arguments, then attack one side almost exclusively. It doesn't make your arguments wrong, but it's an ineffective rhetorical device.

Yeah, you point out that a politician politicks, but also that somehow you expected better. What would you call that?

Look the man has had his own city hall members say over stepped on killing CalgaryNext without a vote. He's had another set of eight commission their own study to help calm down his rhetoric.

Clearly others see he hasn't helped the situation with the games he likes to play.

Other than that, you don't know what I think at all, so please stop trying to climb inside my head. In the office I have numerous "why Ken King has messed this up" conversations with pro building co workers that are annoyed with the mayor.

So maybe it's not a bias, but what this site needs as it's become too one sided itself.

Start hammering the mayor a bit more and maybe you'll see the other side of my balance.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Start hammering the mayor a bit more and maybe you'll see the other side of my balance.

Nenshi is aloud mouth that cares more about a sound bite than working anything out

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Hold on, what exactly could/should the mayor/city have done differently? If the answer is to turn down the snark again, then fair enough, but that likely means having nothing more than a typical, calculating, say-nothing politician-drone. Personally, I'm more than willing to endure Nenshi's occasional snark-flubs to have him cut right through the typical political BS the rest of the time.


Is this the list? Is there anything else?



The quantifiable impact of missing concerts is very much up for debate. IMO such an impact exists, but is negligible in this whole calculation.

Wake me up when the Saddledome is no longer a safe venue.

Without Olympics, the need to replace Saddledome is not necessarily urgent.

There is no hurry. This council just won't be around for long.

On your last point, I guess I'll concede it, but I honestly don't see what the big deal is, either. CNext was mainly kept alive as a procedural formality by council. The tenor of council was obvious - from the city's perspective, it was dead. They just wanted to keep an open dialogue, and tell CSEC it was dead before declaring it so via motion. King is the one posturing by being "surprised" at Nenshi's dead proclamation. I am pretty darn confident that CSEC was made aware of the city's position (ie. CNext is as good as dead), before Nenshi made his remarks in a media scrum. Sure, he could have worded it a bit more diplomatically. Okay. Big whoop. It's not like it was a proofed and edited press-release. I still prefer candid-Nenshi to politico-drone-mayors of the past.

If the CNext proposal does anything useful, it's prove that this is ABSOLUTELY NOT URGENT. Because under even the most optimistic projections, CNext construction was never going to be a quick thing.


So, seriously, what am I missing? How are Nenshi/the city acting poorly? Is there anything beyond not being perfectly diplomatic in media scrums?

And I get it you like the mayor. Understood.

And sure part of it is my annoyance with politics in general, and I have to admit that. But the script has been written for a year starting with Uber, then the "it's math" insult, and into how he's handled the building issue.

Ken King isn't much better. He talks down to the average fan in almost everything he says. If parking is an issue, address it, don't make a stupid joke about modernization and move on.

But the concert thing is real, fans aren't going to die from being the dome no, but they are falling behind and my civic pride finds that annoying. Seeing new CFL stadiums in cities half the size, and the fact that the dome is now the oldest building in hockey outside of the Manhattan rebuild is sad for me. There has to be a way to work together and do something here.

I'm also not for cutting blank checks for team owners and I thought the Edmonton deal spoke to a city's inferiority complex more than anything outside of the NFL.

However I also see the Flames ownership group through most of my life doing a heck of a lot for Calgary, and maybe a little respect and class in how you say "we can't do your funding model", would have shown a little more maturity and savvy instead of the need to be a hero on twitter.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And I get it you like the mayor. Understood.

And sure part of it is my annoyance with politics in general, and I have to admit that. But the script has been written for a year starting with Uber, then the "it's math" insult, and into how he's handled the building issue.

Ken King isn't much better. He talks down to the average fan in almost everything he says. If parking is an issue, address it, don't make a stupid joke about modernization and move on.

But the concert thing is real, fans aren't going to die from being the dome no, but they are falling behind and my civic pride finds that annoying. Seeing new CFL stadiums in cities half the size, and the fact that the dome is now the oldest building in hockey outside of the Manhattan rebuild is sad for me. There has to be a way to work together and do something here.

I'm also not for cutting blank checks for team owners and I thought the Edmonton deal spoke to a city's inferiority complex more than anything outside of the NFL.

However I also see the Flames ownership group through most of my life doing a heck of a lot for Calgary, and maybe a little respect and class in how you say "we can't do your funding model", would have shown a little more maturity and savvy instead of the need to be a hero on twitter.

I don't like the tactics Nenshi resorts to at times, however, it's more favorable than having a Ken King, yes-man clone sitting across the table from CSEC throughout this process. I'm certainly not thrilled that the City cannot properly build its new green LRT line because of funding, yet we are all supposed to happily hand over a small fortune to these fatcat owners that fart $20 bills? I don't buy it and quite frankly if it comes down to my taxes going up substantially or the team moving I'm willing to let the team walk. The Flames compassion for this city is clearly all smoke and mirrors if they are willing to make threats and walk away as they have indicated.

You say the concert thing is real - What floors me is that no-one is drawing attention to the fact that many big time cities have concert venues that are not attached to hockey arenas. This is for the simple fact that the actual concert can be a higher quality experience for everyone while not being tied to an NHL team's scheduling limitations.

Why not just have the city build a field house and new 12,000 seat concert venue capable of hosting the "big acts" everyone likes to talk about but will never pay to see? The Flames can and should be taking care of their own interests. Any investment from the public sector should be minimal and based on a repayment structure.

[Jason14h]

Why not just have the city build a field house and new 12,000 seat concert venue capable of hosting the "big acts" everyone likes to talk about but will never pay to see? The Flames can and should be taking care of their own interests. Any investment from the public sector should be minimal and based on a repayment structure.

So you are fine with your tax dollars being spent on this, but not a larger, big picture project that would also keep the hockey team here?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Why not just have the city build a field house and new 12,000 seat concert venue capable of hosting the "big acts" everyone likes to talk about but will never pay to see?

I generally don't care about the "concerts are skipping Calgary" argument either, because I'm generally not interested in those acts, but people definitely pay to see them, and would fill the building if they came here.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I generally don't care about the "concerts are skipping Calgary" argument either, because I'm generally not interested in those acts, but people definitely pay to see them, and would fill the building if they came here.

It's not just that, I know people from Lethbridge, Medicine Hat and Red Deer that end up going to concerts in Edmonton more and more often when they would go to Calgary before, so not only is it asses in seats, but it is also money into the local economy as they get a hotel room, buy meals... etc.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

It's not just that, I know people from Lethbridge, Medicine Hat and Red Deer that end up going to concerts in Edmonton more and more often when they would go to Calgary before, so not only is it asses in seats, but it is also money into the local economy as they get a hotel room, buy meals... etc.

As a person that lived in small town southern Alberta I don't think Calgarians may realize how many people come into the city for large concerts. We used to pack a few vehicles and head up to the city every time a big act was in town.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

As a person that lived in small town southern Alberta I don't think Calgarians may realize how many people come into the city for large concerts. We used to pack a few vehicles and head up to the city every time a big act was in town.

Yep, any bigger concert in Calgary (and now sometimes Edmonton), I know 10-20 people that are going and if I know 10-20, I can bet you are talking hundreds making the trek just from my city. I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if 3-4k people were from out of town at those shows. I know my brother does 3-4 concerts a year in Calgary in Edmonton, every time he drops money on meals, a hotel and more often than not his wife makes him stop at stores that they can only go to when in Calgary. So it is so much more than just a show for out of many towners.

[Flash Walken]

The point isn't that people pack up from Medicine Hat to drive for a concert, it's that the city of Calgary gets far more positive economic impact from spending infrastructure dollars on improving infrastructure that calgarians use every day.

Spending a billion dollars to re-align a deeply congested thoroughfare is a far better ROI than spending a billion dollars on an arena that may only be used by 5% of the population on a yearly basis.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Other than that, you don't know what I think at all

Originally Posted by Bingo

Start hammering the mayor a bit more and maybe you'll see the other side of my balance.

Apparently I do know what you're thinking, because you've said it yet again. You're not speaking in cryptic riddles here, your words tell us what you think - which is rather the purpose of words, isn't it?

You believe you are balanced. Your words show you are not, not to mention that nobody is. Go ahead and "hammer the mayor", if you think he needs hammering. Just don't expect anyone to believe you're doing it to be fair to both sides.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by jammies

Apparently I do know what you're thinking, because you've said it yet again. You're not speaking in cryptic riddles here, your words tell us what you think - which is rather the purpose of words, isn't it?

You believe you are balanced. Your words show you are not, not to mention that nobody is. Go ahead and "hammer the mayor", if you think he needs hammering. Just don't expect anyone to believe you're doing it to be fair to both sides.

Well balance doesn't necessarily need to mean perfectly!

I know you don't believe me, and that's perfectly fine, but "don't expect anyone" seems like you need to speak for everyone now while also knowing what I'm thinking because my words lack riddles.

Must be easy in arguments to have all that insider information.

But let me spell it all out for you.

-I think Nenshi is a wanker
-I think King is a blowhard
-I think they both like themselves more than the actual project or their jobs
-I think its a pretty normal ask from the owners for public money as that's what Edmonton and a host of other Canadian cities have done.
-I think the city has every right to deny it.
-I think the answer will largely come in with some public money, and a host of other elements much less than what the Flames are looking for.
-I think a mayor trying to land an olympics at the same time he thwarts a building project is odd
-I think the Flames meant well with CalgaryNext as a way to develop the west side and get the city some wins in the process.
-I think they did a terrible job of how they presented it, as I feel a "this is why we think it fits" presentation would have gone a lot further than the "you need to do this because Calgary needs it" approach.
-I think the city wants a building in East Village and because of that they will have to kick in
-If they don't I think we'll see a building towards Langdon funded by the team completely which nobody wants

I have months of posts calling both sides out for their silly games, so yeah I think I'm in the middle in philosophy, but slightly more annoyed with Nenshi than King at this point.

[Flash Walken]

Bingo is the standard bearer of the golden mean fallacy.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Bingo is the standard bearer of the golden mean fallacy.

Had to look that up!

But yeah I think you got me. I'm not an extremist on most issues, so the race to one poll or another will always get push back from me.