Francis: Flames not making excuses for challenges luring top players to Calgary

[Geeoff]

I disagree completely with this premise because you don't win with UFA signings. You win with drafting and trading. Who's the biggest UFA signing on the Lightning?

[Poe969]

If every team in the league thinks Treliving is asking too much, maybe he's overvalued his players and needs to reassess the team.

I am excited for this year because the team looks tougher, I just don't think they're better. I really hope they are but years of the same core disappointing, I'd rather they just make trades for whatever. I'd have more fun cheering for a new bad team instead of the old bad team.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by blender

Sure, but what about the fan base that is "calling for his head"?

Is winning another round, and locking up two of their best players enough to ameliorate the 7 years previous in our minds?

Again, not singling you out at all just curious about people's thoughts on this. Sports is such a "what have you done for me lately" business.I

Show that the last 7 years has actually been building towards something promising. Have a good regular season and get into the 2nd round at least. People are tired of the constant results of no playoffs or first round exit. No one is asking for a cup or else. When you embark on a rebuild plan the main goal is to eventually become a contender, not to toil away just trying to get into the playoffs and then be swatted away easily in the first round. So for me, win a round and we'll see how much confidence is restored in the direction the team is going.

The other reason people want a change is last season was particularly abysmal. 7 years into the rebuild with that kind of season is an absolute fail IMO. That can't be an acceptable result for an NHL organization that has been supposedly building something. It was an epic fail.

If everything comes together this season then great, Treliving is a mastermind after all. But its time for tangible results now. Even the most patient around here are going to be hard pressed for defending management if its just more of the same yet again.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

What an odd topic for Treliving to focus on. Players not wanting to come here? Last I checked, Treliving has had no problem luring high quality free agents to Calgary over his tenure as Flames GM and if anything, luring these UFAs have actually caused him the most grief. The Flames have tons of holes in the line up because Tre has tried to plug failed, expensive free agents into the line up which for the most part, hasn't helped. That just comes down to poor vision, bad direction and dreadful talent evaluation.

I mean, It's not like Jack Eichel axed a trade to the Flames this offseason or something. It's more like the mismanagement of assets under Treliving has made the Flames asset poor which has hampered his ability to manufacture a trade. Had he been more proactive, perhaps he would've traded Monahan prior to his value dropping off a cliff or ideally, he could've put more trust in his amateur scouts and allowed this team to grow more organically instead of rushing the rebuild and signing overpaid periphery pieces when this team was actually missing serious core pieces.

To me, it's pretty simple. This could very well be his last offseason as an NHL GM and he decided to go with virtually the same mediocre group that can't get out of the first round or miss the playoffs completely. I really expected core changes this offseason and am left extremely disappointed. Our only hope now is that we can somehow eek into the playoffs playing the most boring, low scoring hockey while praying our .904 starter doesn't get injured from overuse. A lot is going to have to go right this season for Treliving to save his job and reputation.

Treliving talked about both trades and UFAs, and the reason he focused on them was because he was obviously being asked about the perceived lack of big moves in the offseason. That was the point of the article. He didn’t phone up Francis and say “let’s talk about UFAs not wanting to come here”.

It’s eke.

[Lanny_McDonald]

The players you want will go where they think they have a chance to win. That means looking at the current roster and then what the team has as far as developing talent.
Calgary, especially under Treliving, has not done much winning. Worse, the developing talent has been underwhelming, and the organization continues to have a weak prospect pool. Who is going to look at this team and think to themselves, yeah, that's a team where I've got a chance to win? Treliving came in to a team that was on the rise, and then did nothing with it. In fact, he made it worse. So if Treliving is concerned about attracting talent, look in the mirror. He's the architect behind this mess and is responsible for the eye sore that drives players in the other direction.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

You also have to factor additional income opportunities available from playing in a 'hockey' market...rarely huge money, but any income like this can be held in a personal corporation until retirement when you can draw it at a lower tax burden.

lol yeah that's not really possible. It's even less possible in the USA.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Playing in Calgary for financial purposes isn't too bad. Yes, the taxes here are higher than in the US but they are paid in US dollars which can make up some of the difference. The cost of living is relatively low here in comparison to Toronto and Vancouver as well as the big markets in the US like New York, LA, Miami, Chicago, etc.

It is worthwhile noting that players pay taxes based on the location of the games that they play. So a player on a Florida team would pay no state taxes on home games but would still pay local taxes on the road games.

[dammage79]

Also, how much does Health care costs play into the equation? Has to be some benefit here.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Also, how much does Health care costs play into the equation? Has to be some benefit here.

Basically zero. When you have money the US system is much better.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Also, how much does Health care costs play into the equation? Has to be some benefit here.

You can get access to premium private health care insurance in the US, without employer subsidy, for say $25K a year for a family. This would include your deductible.

That is a huge factor for someone making $100K a year. Not so much when you're pulling in seven figures.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Basically zero. When you have money the US system is much better.

Not true. Heath outcomes in the US are terrible. Yup, you can get access to treatment in the US, but the US system is very poor in making you well.

[CGY12]

“It doesn’t make any sense for us to give a player away for 50 cents on the dollar. It’s great to say, 'go get this guy.' Problem is, this isn’t fantasy hockey. The idea that you can go pick ‘this player’ off the player tree ... it doesn’t happen that way.”

And who's fault is that? Part of being a good GM is projecting and properly assessing what you have and if they have the 2nd gear to get you to places very few teams get. BT has failed at this miserably and held on too long. In a "challenging" market like Calgary, where you may not be the most desired place for players, more calculated risks need to be taken. Of course not all are going to pan out but personally I'd rather my team have that philosophy over one that just treads water and is known for mediocrity. Sean Monahan is a perfect example of failure on BTs part, held on to Gio and got nothing in return, etc.

[djsFlames]

Gio being taken in expansion doesn't bug me as much as Brodie walking, especially when he had the value to potentially land Kadri.

Should've been dealt. Guess there was no plan B after the Toronto deal that fell through.

That can't happen again any time soon.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Gio being taken in expansion doesn't bug me as much as Brodie walking, especially when he had the value to potentially
land Kadri.

Another great example, Brodie.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Did you even look at the numbers?

Going by the Gavin tax calculator that Cheese linked to and that you tried to contradict: On a league minimum salary, every single U.S. market has lower income taxes than Calgary. For a roughly league-average salary of $3,000,000, every U.S. market outside California and New York is lower. (Yes, New Jersey too. And Buffalo, for that matter, where you don't have to pay New York City's municipal income tax.) The same remains true for Eichel money.

Cost of living is trivial if you're making several million dollars a year. If you're not a complete chump, most of your after-tax pay is going into investments at that point, and they cost the same amount to buy no matter where you live.

Some players want to play in New York or L.A. because they like the big-city lifestyle coupled with the anonymity of being a small attraction in a town full of big stars. They know they'll give up some take-home pay to do that. No Canadian market offers anything comparable in exchange for the high taxes.

There are lots of ways that high-paid people can minimize their tax burdens which makes superficial comparisons of tax rates between jurisdictions more or less pointless. Particularly for athletes, who also pay taxes based on the locations of their games (which reduces the difference between different US states' tax rates somewhat).

In the context of Canada, an important one (that doesn't have a US equivalent) is Retirement Compensation Arrangements, which involves setting up a trust to receive a portion of their income tax free. That income is then distributed after retirement and is taxed accordingly. So players can defer a significant portion of their Canadian taxes by sheltering their income in an RCA and then receive it in retirement (sort of like a giant RRSP), generally at a lower marginal rate. This benefit is particularly great for non-Canadian players (or Canadians willing to become non-residents after retirement) because they can normally get away with paying a flat 25% tax rate on lump sum pension income. So a player might play in Canada, divert 40-50% of their income into an RCA, and then retire abroad where they can collect the money at half the tax rate they would have paid while playing.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Not true. Heath outcomes in the US are terrible. Yup, you can get access to treatment in the US, but the US system is very poor in making you well.

Huh? People with money from all around the world go to the US for healthcare.

It's stupid expensive but who the hell says its not good for rich people? Never heard that before.


But ya, every Canadian GM could say the same thing. Not surprising, most players don't want to play in Canada. If I was a millionaire 20 year old I wouldn't live in Calgary haha

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It was pretty well known in the era you talk about that the Flames paid a lot of money to players, compared to some other teams. And then the dollar fell, and things changed. In a cap world the Flames don't have an ability to overpay as much as they used to. If they do, they end up like Edmonton or Toronto, with a highly paid top line and a bunch of scrubs below. Compared to certain US teams the overpayment has to also reflect taxes (and yes, I have seen the accountants' arguments that the difference isn't as great but I think players don't see it that way).

You hear it so frequently as well. I think that I've heard multiple executives mention it recently. Burke comes to mind saying that taxes are a big issue in the league.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Not true. Heath outcomes in the US are terrible. Yup, you can get access to treatment in the US, but the US system is very poor in making you well.

For an average person? Or for millionaires?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Now check out the NHL Lifestyle rankings on the same site. The worst cities for cost of living are Florida, NY, Cali, NJ, Wash and Chi.

Cities with a high cost of living will actually be very attractive to NHL players. That means there are lots of rich people in the city, and lots of sites and services that cater to rich people - exclusive communities, golf clubs, private schools, high-end restaurants, shopping, etc.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by DJones

Huh? People with money from all around the world go to the US for healthcare.

It's stupid expensive but who the hell says its not good for rich people? Never heard that before.


But ya, every Canadian GM could say the same thing. Not surprising, most players don't want to play in Canada. If I was a millionaire 20 year old I wouldn't live in Calgary haha

It's complicated as hell. You are 100% right, the US is a center for innovation and premium health care. Look at where the best Covid vaccines came from.

And of course costs and accessibility are the big issues in the US. But there are statistics that show outcomes in the US for certain types of health care aren't as good as in other highly developed countries. The answer can't be boiled down to a sound byte and I imagine a lot relates back to the accessibility issue.

Here's a pretty good study.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/...es/#item-start