Brad Treliving needs to go

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Back to Brad.

No pick in the last three drafts has played a game for us.

The 2017 draft is also a disaster - Valimaki and his 65 GP are all we have to show for it 4 years later.

The entire front office needs to go. There should literally be nobody employed in a coaching, scouting or managerial role after game 56 except Darryl.

3 kids in the 2020 draft have played a game for anyone. They were all top 6 picks. 2 have played over 17.

9 kids in the 2019 draft have played over 10 games. Three of those were taken after Pelletier, and they’ve got 5 games total between them.

The Flames traded their 2018 pick, which didn’t work out but unless they happened to pick Dobson or Farrabee and not Dilendria, Denisenko, Kaut etc, there wouldn’t be a whole lot of games from that player either.

Valimaki’s game count is pretty high up in the 2017 draft class, especially at his pick number and below. There’s a few with a few more games, but even those are mostly non-household names. And none of them had a missing season.

[Shazam]

I have no confidence that the Flames would get a better GM than Tre, so just keep everybody as is and let the team flail. Maybe a few draft picks will actually pan out.

Tre can quit if he gets bored.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It's not just about scoring - but I get your point.
But I would counter that if your top line player are getting outplayed more often than not - then you are already behind.
If anything the Oilers are proof of this. They can win games by having the two best players on the ice most nights. Can they win a championship? Remains to be seen. But they enjoy that advantage every night.

Calgary is at a disadvantage most nights because their top players are inferior.

For the Flames specifically, I think scoring has probably been the biggest bugaboo in the Treliving era. Looking at the team’s rankings in goals ever since he hired Gulutzan is pretty damning. The primary objective in the NHL is to outscore your opponent and generally speaking, when you’re middle of the pack or in the 20’s a lot of years, you’re probably at best a bubble playoff team which is exactly what the Flames are minus 18-19 when they caught lightning in a bottle.

The Oilers are proof that you can’t be a 2 player team. If this is a 3-2 league, then McDavid and Draisaitl would have to consistently produce 2 to 3 goals every night in order for the Oilers to win. That’s not going to happen as I pointed out, stars get shutdown from time to time and that’s when you hope the other guys can pick up the slack.

The Flames are probably middle of the pack when it comes to star player production; but ever since their dynamic duo was figured out, this team has struggled to win because they’ve anticipated a certain number of goals from that duo every season and they haven’t delivered up to the expected standard. Who’s at fault is certainly debatable, but I still think it ultimately comes down to Treliving either picking the wrong guys to move forward, not building the requisite depth this team needed or building the wrong type of team that can succeed in today’s game.

Every year this team gets trounced in the same way whether it be in the playoffs or in the regular season, so to me, that’s not learning from past mistakes. It’s actually very reminiscent when Darryl’s team would be fail in the first round or fail to make the playoffs, you have to know when and how to pivot quickly otherwise you end up like the Flames, several failed rebuilds spanning 3 decades now.


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[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

This is a poor analysis
In the 2018 draft, the Flames drafted Martin Pospisil at 105. There are only 5 players that have played a single NHL game after him. One that played 3. One that played 1. The other 3 have played around 37-45 games.

In the 2019 draft, the the Flames drafted Jakob Pelletier at #26.
There have been 6 players drafted after him that have played a single NHL game. The most 39 from Hoglander (great pick). Everyone else is under 10 games played.

In the 2020 draft, the Flames drafted Connor Zary at #24. Not a single player after him has played a single NHL game


As for the 2017 draft I'm not writing Valimaki off yet. Expectations were too high but coming off an injury he still has plenty of runway. Adam Ruzicka is the next highest pick at #109 and is developing nicely.

The problem with the Flames hasn't been the quality of who they are picking but rather the lack of picks.



The fact that "no player has played a single NHL game" in the last 3 years is a sign of nothing. It's simply far too early to judge.

If we have 65 NHL games from an Olympic cycle’s worth of draft picks, that means the GM needs to be fired.

The front office drafted one big leaguer in four years, and hired three head coaches.

Enough.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If we have 65 NHL games from an Olympic cycle’s worth of draft picks, that means the GM needs to be fired.

The front office drafted one big leaguer in four years, and hired three head coaches.

Enough.

I see you’ve moved the goalposts by a year. Well, in those 4 years, how many big leaguers have most teams drafted in the last 4? Toronto has zero. Winnipeg has zero. Edmonton has one, from 2017, like Calgary. Montreal has one, Jesper K, who was a 3rd overall pick. Vancouver has done well with 3, (two of whom were top 7 picks). Ottawa as well, but again, two were top 4 picks.

Outside the div, there aren’t a lot of teams with players drafted in the last 4 years making a present impact, particularly teams that drafted outside of a top position.

I also see by going 4 years and not 5 or 6, you managed to skip 2016, when the Flames drafted Tkachuk, Fox and Dube. And 2015, when the Flames hit on Rasmus and Mangiapane.

What teams have drafted better in the last 4 years in your opinion? I think the list is pretty short and unproven.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If we have 65 NHL games from an Olympic cycle’s worth of draft picks, that means the GM needs to be fired.

The front office drafted one big leaguer in four years, and hired three head coaches.

Enough.

You can distill your complaint to this: the Flames picked once in the top 104 in 2018 and 2017. That is damning and terrible in itself.

The 2 most recent drafts are silly to assess. '18 and '17 would be silly to assess at this point, too...all we can say is that our one legitimate prospect from it remains a question mark, and that Ruzicka looks somewhat promising.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That’s why I wanted the deal. It was really only a proposal on this board. I have no clue whether it was ever a discussion.

I expect it never was available. The Flames would have jumped on it.


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[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

You can distill your complaint to this: the Flames picked once in the top 104 in 2018 and 2017. That is damning and terrible in itself.

The 2 most recent drafts are silly to assess. '18 and '17 would be silly to assess at this point, too...all we can say is that our one legitimate prospect from it remains a question mark, and that Ruzicka looks somewhat promising.

It’s a clear mistake in hindsight but that’s way more about how Hanonic turned out than the actual decision. Treliving thought he was getting someone like Tanev, and a top 4 D of Hamilton, Gio, Tanev and Brodie for those years looks darn good. Maybe it moves the needle some.

Im not really concerned about a rookie D having the issues Valinaki has had. Look at Hanifin’s numbers from his rookie year and look at him now.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

after the SC run the Flames dumped Gelinas, Conroy, Clark, Commodore, Gauthier, Lydman, Oliwa, Nieminen CP survived

That’s a list of non core players. To say the least.


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[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I bet CP would have erupted if it Johnny, Monny and Gio were traded at that time.

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Which is fine. Most of CP thought [or at least wanted to think] this team was good enough, and were wrong.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

In hindsight they should have taken more than two steps back. That is the point I’m trying to make. But it would have been extremely unpopular. And it would have been a TDL deal last year, when the Flames were in a PO spot. Tough to do, from a fan perspective, a value perspective and a team makeup perspective. Plus the deals have to be there.

I’m not saying it shouldn’t have happened. But maybe it couldn’t, and maybe it was just too hard to pull off, or even to think about seriously. It would have required a complete about face.

All fair. Of course it shouldn't be a popularity contest, and ultimately the owners have final say. But I think even without hindsight it was a fairly simple evaluation.

Gaudreau and Gio were the 'window-limiting' factors based on contracts and age. There were reasons to believe both had already played their very best hockey (which isn't say they couldn't get close to that level again).

To push more chips in, you have to believe:
1. Gio and Gaudreau can be good enough
2. The rest of the team can be good enough (mostly ascending players, aside from Backlund, Lucic, Ryan, and Monahan? + uncertainty in goal)

If you believe #2 to be true, shouldn't you also believe that they would be close to good enough with short-term downgrades in place of Gaudreau and/or Gio?


Even if you really want to take one more shot, you have to look at the cupboards: 2 real blue-chips in the farm at the time (Valimaki, Pelletier), and only a few more who look to be more than longshots (Kylington, Ruzicka, Phillips). So even if you go in and things actually progress, can you sustain it?


Obviously moving JG (or Gio) isn't a simple matter. But at least move Brodie. Maybe you get a 1st, maybe it's a 2nd + 3rd. You can still go ahead and blow some 3rds and 4ths on Gust and Bort, but at least you're not buying them 100% on credit.


As for a trade that would probably have been there:
Debrusk + Backes + 1st + prospect(s) + pick(s) for JG.

We saw what they gave up for Kase, we've seen that they still wanted Hall. Seems likely they'd have strongly considered JG.

Yes, Backes is an anchor. But he also does a bit to address a need of a RHS, big, tough player to hold down the 4th line. Cupboards re-stocked [somewhat]; play style can adjust. Maybe you find the Lucic-Bennett-Dube magic sooner? Who knows.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If we have 65 NHL games from an Olympic cycle’s worth of draft picks, that means the GM needs to be fired.

The front office drafted one big leaguer in four years, and hired three head coaches.

Enough.

There are arguments as to why they should be fired.
But this specific one is illogical.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

That’s a list of non core players. To say the least.


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#1 C Conroy, top 6 forward Gelinas and Lydman #3 D and Gauthier 80 games 18:43

That would be Monahan, Hamonic and Andersson and Frolik playing their last game as a Flame when their value was high after 2018-19 play-offs..... plus Clark who was an everyday player and Commodore who was the best prospect d-man in the organization. Both went on to have much better years after they left along with Lydman

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

#1 C Conroy, top 6 forward Gelinas and Lydman #3 D and Gauthier 80 games 18:43

That would be Monahan, Hamonic and Andersson and Frolik playing their last game as a Flame when their value was high after 2018-19 play-offs..... plus Clark who was an everyday player and Commodore who was the best prospect d-man in the organization. Both went on to have much better years after they left along with Lydman

Oh, good grief. Best prospect D man? Commodore was 23 when he left. That “prospect” was the same age as Regehr, on the same team. And when he left there was this kid named Mark Giordano playing in Lowell with him.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It’s a clear mistake in hindsight but that’s way more about how Hanonic turned out than the actual decision. Treliving thought he was getting someone like Tanev, and a top 4 D of Hamilton, Gio, Tanev and Brodie for those years looks darn good. Maybe it moves the needle some.

Im not really concerned about a rookie D having the issues Valinaki has had. Look at Hanifin’s numbers from his rookie year and look at him now.

In interesting question to me is: how good would Hamonic have needed to be for it to be a good trade?

I don't know the answer...I'm not sure anyone short of Chris Pronger could have put this team over the top.

Not sure 3 years worth of current Tanev type play would have been worth that price.

I'm a BT apologist, but the more I look at things the more damning it is. 2017 TDL to draft sure was a drunken spending spree:

3rd (would've been 2nd if we made 2018 playoffs)
5th
3rd
2nd
1st
2nd
2nd

for

2 years Mike Smith
Michael Stone - 3mths to UFA
Lazar (played 66 games total)
3 years of Hamonic

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Oh, good grief. Best prospect D man? Commodore was 23 when he left. That “prospect” was the same age as Regehr, on the same team. And when he left there was this kid named Mark Giordano playing in Lowell with him.

Regehr is actually ~ 6 months younger. Not sure I would've guessed that.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

In interesting question to me is: how good would Hamonic have needed to be for it to be a good trade?

I don't know the answer...I'm not sure anyone short of Chris Pronger could have put this team over the top.

Not sure 3 years worth of current Tanev type play would have been worth that price.

I'm a BT apologist, but the more I look at things the more damning it is. 2017 TDL to draft sure was a drunken spending spree:

3rd (would've been 2nd if we made 2018 playoffs)
5th
2nd
1st
2nd
2nd

for

2 years Mike Smith
Michael Stone - 3mths to UFA
Lazar (played 66 games total)
3 years of Hamonic





Regehr is actually ~ 6 months younger. Not sure I would've guessed that.

I mostly focussed on Hamonic since the others were just depth moves (which everyone does) aside from Smith. They needed a goalie and lots of people, even here, thought Smith was a decent fit.

I mean, Toronto just made similar depth moves at higher prices and people proclaimed Dubas a genius. Is Florida smart for trading a 2nd and a decent prospect for Bennett?

I do think that Tanev level play out of Hamonic would have made a huge difference.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I mostly focussed on Hamonic since the others were just depth moves (which everyone does) aside from Smith. They needed a goalie and lots of people, even here, thought Smith was a decent fit.

I mean, Toronto just made similar depth moves at higher prices and people proclaimed Dubas a genius. Is Florida smart for trading a 2nd and a decent prospect for Bennett?

I do think that Tanev level play out of Hamonic would have made a huge difference.

I get it, but if you have to spend that kind of assets on goalies and depth, are you really in the position to spending 3 premium assets for 3 years of a 2/3 D-man? I don't think everyone spends that many picks on depth pieces.

TOR's moves were pretty dumb IMO. Glad we benefited. But I can see the logic of going all-in since they'll never be in such a weak division again. It's also unlikely they'll get this kind of value out of Spezza, Thornton, and Hyman again.


Neither FLA nor TOR have spent such so many assets to get to this point; it's a no-brainer year for both to make a push.

[HighLifeMan]

Treliving needs to go.

He assembled this roster with a certain skillset and vision in mind (and found success) and then flip flopped that outlook due to the outcome of the Colorado series and wanted to become more "difficult" to play against. In theory that sounds fine, but the construction of the roster did not allow for this to happen.

Johhny Gaudreau and Sean Monahan have gone from elite even strength point producers over a 3-4 year period to now producing at below average third line results. That is not due to a lack of skill or ability. This is due to these players being pigeonholed into a system they simply don't have the tools and attributes to successfully and productively execute. It's no coincidence that the even strength production of our high end players has dropped off a cliff after Ward took over. He had an extremely similar outlook and vision as Sutter.

This organization has effectively neutered the creativity and productivity of it's best players and drove their respective values down into the ground in the process. This mess is Treliving's burden to carry.

[Vinny01]

What did Peters do that was so different than Sutter or Ward? The team was elite offensively for 1 year under him but they were certainly not trending that way in year 2.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What did Peters do that was so different than Sutter or Ward? The team was elite offensively for 1 year under him but they were certainly not trending that way in year 2.

Yea I just think they had a more aggressive attack off the rush, a higher shooting %, and Johnny/Mony cashed in on a lot of them 'Johnny-to-Mony-in the slot" PP goals as well. They just had their mojo going.

This year I feel like they just suck at shooting accuracy. I see so many players from other teams shelf it on goalies while our guys just shoot in the chest with the odd top shelf goal but it's rare. We lack elite shooters. Monahan and Lindholm are really our only good ones. Mange can sometimes get a beauty off but these guys are just ####ty shooters.

[Patek23]

I for once agree with Nault. I don't care what was reported by media there's no way Treliving re-signed Ward for 2 years to fire him 20 some odd games in without pressure from up top. I think ownership pushed the Sutter hire and I'd imagine Treliving is gone soon as season is over as well. Likely someone Sutter has worked with prior being brought in.